Author Topic: New Room, No Bass  (Read 2596 times)

Offline Karabo C

New Room, No Bass
« on: November 10, 2017, 12:35:05 PM »
After more than 4 years of my audio equipment packed up in storage, I've finally finished building my dedicated room. The room isn't 100% done, with only a few minor finishes to sort out and getting some carpets, couches and a proper stand for the electronics.

It looks like this:




So I eagerly hooked up the speakers, AV receiver and source just to get an idea of how it all sounds. What a disappointment. Virtually zero bass. The speakers are Paradigm Studio 100 v5, so I was expecting decent bass. The listening position (on a futon, for now) is dead center in the middle of the room.

I tried the following:
* Checking the obvious stuff (proper cable connection contact at the speaker terminals, checking that connections are in phase, setting the speaker to "large" on the receiver, etc)
* Moving the speakers to different locations around the front of the room
* Experimenting with different listening positions
* Walking all over room to hear if bass is better at any other locations
* Using other speakers that I know not to be bass shy

I even went as far as to use a separate DAC and pre/power amp setup

None of these things yielded any noticeable bass improvement.

A few things to clarify about the room:
* The room is pretty bare for now, with no furniture apart from the TV stand and a futon
* The front stage cannot be altered to a different position (wiring is already place for side, back & overhead speakers, as well as cabling for a projector)
* All windows have quite thick curtains.
* For reasons I'd rather not get into, the back of the room (the part with the slab), had to be built that way.
* The entire roof cavity is extensively insulated with glasswool and ceiling tiles are made of rigid fiberglass panels, like so:





I am aware that the best thing to do is to measure the room. Unfortunately my measuring mic is packed away somewhere far.

There are a few things I'll try over the weekend if time allows to see what effects these may bring such as placing loose fiberglass along the walls, introducing two subwoofers.

My understanding is that bass traps are usually used for taming/absorbing uneven bass, which is not the problem I have. So I'm guessing bass traps aren't a solution for me, or are they?

Or is the roof/ceiling configuration contributing/causing the bass problem?

Is the peculiar shape of the back of the room not ideal, acoustically?

What should I do?

Offline ScottulusMaximus

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2017, 12:45:30 PM »
Did you reset the Audessy curves? It's probably still configured for the old room.

An AVR is not the best thing to be testing with, need a good old fashioned amp so you know there's nothing funky in the setup of the AVR.
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Offline Karabo C

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2017, 12:56:35 PM »
Did you reset the Audessy curves? It's probably still configured for the old room.

An AVR is not the best thing to be testing with, need a good old fashioned amp so you know there's nothing funky in the setup of the AVR.

Nope, it's a brand new receiver that I used, so there were no previous settings. Used it in "Pure Direct" mode.

Like I said in the post, I also tested with a DAC and pre/power combo in the room.

Offline Rodney_gold

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2017, 03:05:33 PM »
Middle of the room is not a good listening position , try a lot closer to a boundary wall
Any open doorways or large expanses of glass will act as severe bass "leaks"
Make sure the speakers are in phase...if you havent checked that yet
Roon/tidal > Squeezebox touch> Trinnov St2 >2x Devialet D premiers>  Vivid audio Giya G1 spirits ..fully treated room

Offline Rotten Johnny

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2017, 03:45:06 PM »
Your room dimensions are marginally larger than I had in SA and without bass traps or IB subs mounted in the ceiling I had the same issue - some stuff was boomy and most stuff had no bass. What you likely have going on is bass cancellation. For a start pop your room dimensions into REW’s room simulator (what’s your ceiling height?).  That will confirm the extent to which bass cancellation resulting from room dimension is a factor. Bass traps gave me the best results in terms of very articulate bass and also a much clearer midrange.
I like beautiful melodies telling me terrible things -- Tom Waits

Free your mind...and your ass will follow.

Offline Timber_MG

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2017, 04:13:57 PM »
Cancellations can be treated with bass traps, they just have to be effective and cover a large area over the frequencies involved. Your ceiling is a good start, I take it the black border is back-filled with insulation and perforated (use lower density material in this application)?

Evan's room was such that most speaker/listener placements had a suck-out between 35-55Hz almost regardless of placement due to a reflection off the front wall.

Edit, grammar
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 04:20:38 PM by Timber_MG »

Offline Karabo C

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2017, 07:05:15 PM »
Middle of the room is not a good listening position , try a lot closer to a boundary wall
Any open doorways or large expanses of glass will act as severe bass "leaks"
Make sure the speakers are in phase...if you havent checked that yet

Re. listening positiong, I tried virtually every nook and cranny of the room Rodney. No luck anywhere. All doors closed. Speaker phase checked. 

Your room dimensions are marginally larger than I had in SA and without bass traps or IB subs mounted in the ceiling I had the same issue - some stuff was boomy and most stuff had no bass.

Yep, that's precisely what's happening. Virtually no bass for music, except for the boomy bass during explosions and such in movies

.....For a start pop your room dimensions into REW’s room simulator (what’s your ceiling height?).  That will confirm the extent to which bass cancellation resulting from room dimension is a factor. Bass traps gave me the best results in terms of very articulate bass and also a much clearer midrange.

OK, I'll start with the REW simulator. Ceiling height is 2.54m.

I take it the black border is back-filled with insulation and perforated (use lower density material in this application)?


Yes, the ceiling tiles along the border are practically the same as the white ones, absorptive and back filled.

I miscalculated the quantity of the white tiles when I bought them last year. When I tried to get more a few months ago when the ceiling had to be done, it turned out they were discontinued by the manufacturer and were not available any longer, so I improvised with the black ones.

It seems bass traps may be my solution. Fortunately I have more than sufficient material for this. I just need the time to build them. Hopefully during the december holidays.

Offline Rodney_gold

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2017, 07:43:20 PM »
I recon its the ceiling tiles acting like panel membrane traps..if you exhausted all other possibilities
Roon/tidal > Squeezebox touch> Trinnov St2 >2x Devialet D premiers>  Vivid audio Giya G1 spirits ..fully treated room

Offline BiZKiT

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 04:43:16 AM »
i also think its the ceiling, to high with the think pink pitched up like that. Normally it would be a flat or slightly sloped roof. Maybe put think pink on the ceiling boards :2c:

Offline seanjammy

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 03:15:20 PM »
Try different speakers. My money is on the speakers being tuned at a destructive frequency.

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Offline Rotten Johnny

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2017, 12:30:37 AM »
Klyvq, here's an approximate room sim using your external dimensions.  Given the changes in internal dimension are constant I'd expect the results to look much the same if you used the internal room dimensions.  Only bass traps or some carefully placed and very well integrated subs can help you here.  Speak with Timber

« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 12:32:46 AM by Rotten Johnny »
I like beautiful melodies telling me terrible things -- Tom Waits

Free your mind...and your ass will follow.

Offline Karabo C

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2017, 12:35:41 PM »
i also think its the ceiling, to high with the think pink pitched up like that. Normally it would be a flat or slightly sloped roof. Maybe put think pink on the ceiling boards :2c:

Tinkering with the roof insulation is out of the question. I did the thinkpink job myself and I don't ever want to go up there. Besides, and unless I'm totally missing your point, the tiles are also made of the same material, though a lot more denser and rigid. How would putting the thinkpink against the tiles make a difference?

Try different speakers. My money is on the speakers being tuned at a destructive frequency.

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Already tried this. Made no difference

Offline Karabo C

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2017, 12:39:21 PM »
Klyvq, here's an approximate room sim using your external dimensions.  Given the changes in internal dimension are constant I'd expect the results to look much the same if you used the internal room dimensions.  Only bass traps or some carefully placed and very well integrated subs can help you here.  Speak with Timber




Klyvq??? :???:

Thanks RJ. I got very similar results on REW with more accurate room dimensions. If I get time and energy later today I'll play around with placing stacks of fiberglass panels along corners and see what happens.

I'll also talk to Martin.

Offline Rotten Johnny

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2017, 02:06:57 PM »
Klyvq??? :???:
  :-[  ... sorry, it was late.

The good news is chunk traps will hugely improve the bass response and midrange in the room, however, the bad news is unless you do something drastic those room dimensions are always going to produce a null right where you don't want it, just like mine did:

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I like beautiful melodies telling me terrible things -- Tom Waits

Free your mind...and your ass will follow.

Offline seanjammy

Re: New Room, No Bass
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2017, 06:31:34 PM »
Tinkering with the roof insulation is out of the question. I did the thinkpink job myself and I don't ever want to go up there. Besides, and unless I'm totally missing your point, the tiles are also made of the same material, though a lot more denser and rigid. How would putting the thinkpink against the tiles make a difference?

Already tried this. Made no difference
Eish. That sucks. I think the technical term is that the room is stuffed. Broken. Kaput

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