Poor Standard of Home Cinema Demo Rooms

Avian

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So I've been shopping around for new speakers... and people probably think I'm nuts for buying a set of LCR's just to demo them in home and them reselling with a big loss. However after a recent experience I think I'm literally DONE with demo's anywhere except my own room. Not that it's that wonderful, I think it's good, but there are a lot of way better cinema's for sure. At least I'm following the basic principles and you can hear it, which should be the norm for commercial outlets...

So I went to listen to a M&K cinema room recently, I'm in the Western Cape, so I can't speak for how things are in other provinces.

After listening at several types of familiar content for about 30mins I call it quits. The guy was very nice and very accomodating and expected probably the opposite of what I then told him. That the system sounded quite bad and my current one was significantly better, but I could at least get an idea of what the speakers sounded like.

First, let me list the positives :
Very friendly and good service. Accomodating and pleasant experiece.
Decent sized room with good lighting.
Center speaker mounted at correct height.
All M&K speakers used for LCR and surround / ceiling.
Basic carpet.

Negatives :
Tiny screen, probably 85", maybe 100", but it looks smaller.
Projector overthrowing, just take 5 mins to center it at least.
Only single couch so you can only evaluate one small listening area.
Non AT screen with screen high and horizontal center below it - can at least do 3 identical LCR's, screen high enough that you can vertical mount and your neck will be fine, it's just a demo duration that you look a little upwards.
All gear off center to left of room - no reason.
Side LCR's high up on walls and close to screen - so way above height it should be for atmos, resulting in no vertical seperation and narrow soundstage due to narrow spacing.
All surrounds also same height and thus making the atmos useless.
Only 2 atmos speakers - why not 4, it's a long room, 6m+
Runs off integrated AVR, which is fine for those speakers, but I asked to listen to the S150's on seperates - misunderstanding I guess.
Doesn't know what room correction was used - not sure it was run to be honest.
Velodyne single 12" sub just placed randomly - seriously?
Left wall (entire wall) ONLY covered with thin FOAM "absorption", thus giving UNI-lateral absorption of only the high frequencies - skewing the whole freq spectrum and only unilateral as well - this just illustrated a total lack of interest to literally just google that most basic of room treatment materials and principles. Shocking.
FULLY reflective rear wall - same as above, NOTHING bouncing off the rear wall is good... O but there are wallpaper with pretty pictures, that makes up for it!

I could go on, but by now you get the picture. It was good equipment, but it was one of the worst sounding systems I've ever heard, and probably not 50% of what it should sound like.

Now all of this said, they are suppliers to retailers and do not sell to the public. But why bother with a demo room at all when you do it like that? Are most people impressed by the complete lack of clarity and boomy one note bloated bass with narrow soundstage and no height seperation? Or do most people just want to get they're ears blown away, if it goes loud and there's lots of bass it's epic? Am I way to critical here? I'm shopping for around 100k priced LCR's, am I asking too much? I'm just frustrated that there are such well known and easy principles to follow to set up a room to give a decent balanced sound and bring the best out of the gear - but it's just not being done. Is it a lack of knowledge (basic, especially if it's your job) or a total lack of interest? Is it just the Western Cape?

Luckily there are places that spend some time setting up their gear and has room treatment and it makes a big difference. Still I feel this is an area where there can be a lot of improvement by all commercial outlets.

Anyhow, rant over. I just thought I'd share my experience here and maybe get some sympathy, or critique, either way, feel free to discuss.
 

BiZKiT

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Pity to read stuff like this. I think i know where you went and im on it l, will be in contact as MK is very close to my hart.
 

mr_b

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Drifter said:
I did not know PlanetWorld had a demo room in Cape Town .....

I suspect they didn't know either... based on the OP's description!  :eek:
 

Avian

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Drifter said:
I did not know PlanetWorld had a demo room in Cape Town .....

Well I didn't mention the name, to keep things neutral and generalized, but I guess the brand gave it away. Maybe it's for the better, but just to be clear : my aim here is not to shame any place / company or brand, (though they should feel ashamed to be honest), but rather the opposite, to inform others and raise awareness. We need to know what we are to expect in order to make informed decisions, so that we can spend out hard earned money as wisely as possible. Someone may have a much different reference than I did and not know how things should sound and that could lead to a poor spending decision.

I did tell the host what was wrong in my opinion and why I gave the feedback I did, also summarizing how a few changes could remedy a lot of the issues, in my opinion as an enthusiast. (I'm not a professional by any means) I also said I did not mean to insult at all, but I felt I had to be honest. It's like getting horrible food at a restaurant, complaining to your wife, but when the waiter comes and asks "is everything okay?" we tend to just smile and say "yes thanks!". So that's not the best example, if you complain, even constructive criticism, you have to deal with the whole scene of the manager coming out etc etc. I just don't bother anymore - I once told the manager "look I'm not trying to get a free meal here... It's literally a case of me informing you, because if you don't know you can't fix it"

Anyhow, audio is different. I feel obligated to give constructive criticism so improvements can be made. And that was the idea of the post, to share and raise awareness and hopefully over time make a difference in a positive direction.
 

Avian

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BiZKiT said:
Pity to read stuff like this. I think i know where you went and im on it l, will be in contact as MK is very close to my hart.

Thanks, it's an easy fix. A 2nd sub and 1 hour with a room correction mic, REW and a UMIK-1, some fibreglass panels and a few speaker relocations - different ballgame. I'm still very optimistic about M&K though, the pedigree speaks for itself. I could hear certain elements that I was looking for, so it wasn't 100% fruitless.

I will probably be going M&K, and I'll post about it when it happens. I also don't mind to demo the system to any forum member (or person they trust), seeing as it's almost impossible to demo M&K, especially in the Western Cape. If I can help someone in that way, I'm all for it.
 

Morgan Irwin

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Avian said:
it's almost impossible to demo M&K, especially in the Western Cape. If I can help someone in that way, I'm all for it.

This is true. However I did have a 950 series demo room at my office here in Cape Town.
https://www.facebook.com/MirrorEdgeNetworks/photos/4410084372352622
The amount of people that were aware of it would be questionable... But how do you advertise a cinema demonstration facility to attract the right people?

This was decommissioned as a colleague had a quick requirement and I was able to assist him with some of my equipment.

I must say however that it is a challenge having a high quality demonstration facility.
I am in a fortunate position that I am going to be overhauling my demo room so that it aesthetically looks the way I want to present a high-end home cinema room, while having the correct acoustic treatment.
If all goes well, it will feature an M&K 950 series of speakers once again, and in the best case scenario, processing will be handled by a Trinnov to ensure the best possible presentation of the speakers. While also demonstrating the strength of room correction.

With the above being said though, demo rooms like this cost a lot of money to design, build & ultimately kit out at that level.
The sad part is when good quality clients don't take the opportunity to visit rooms at that level. (because believe me, you would not believe the amount of people who I invited for demonstrations at Sphere Custom Design's Wisdom Audio / Trinnov demonstration room who simply never showed up....)

 

Avian

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Morgan Irwin said:
This is true. However I did have a 950 series demo room at my office here in Cape Town.
https://www.facebook.com/MirrorEdgeNetworks/photos/4410084372352622
The amount of people that were aware of it would be questionable... But how do you advertise a cinema demonstration facility to attract the right people?

This was decommissioned as a colleague had a quick requirement and I was able to assist him with some of my equipment.

I must say however that it is a challenge having a high quality demonstration facility.
I am in a fortunate position that I am going to be overhauling my demo room so that it aesthetically looks the way I want to present a high-end home cinema room, while having the correct acoustic treatment.
If all goes well, it will feature an M&K 950 series of speakers once again, and in the best case scenario, processing will be handled by a Trinnov to ensure the best possible presentation of the speakers. While also demonstrating the strength of room correction.

With the above being said though, demo rooms like this cost a lot of money to design, build & ultimately kit out at that level.
The sad part is when good quality clients don't take the opportunity to visit rooms at that level. (because believe me, you would not believe the amount of people who I invited for demonstrations at Sphere Custom Design's Wisdom Audio / Trinnov demonstration room who simply never showed up....)

It's true what you say about advertising to attract the right people... these angles are the ones that the consumers do not always think of.

Just an observation... Trinnov is amazing and the room correction is second to none. It really would bring out the best in the system. Personally, this would be a treat for me to hear, but when it comes to buying, I like to listen to gear that are "price matched" or at least in the ballpark of my gear. So when listening to speakers I would prefer strongly if the amp / amps are similar to what I have. This allows me to get a realistic picture of what the speakers would sound like back home.

When you hear the system on Trinnov separates and you then connect them to an AVR, it won't sound close to the same - and most people run integrated AVR's. Most do not even have the good version of Audyssey. People that shop for M&K 950's wouldn't look at Trinnov, and people that shop for Trinnov wouldn't look at 950's

This is just my perspective! I do however understand the principle of wanting to show the best the speakers has to offer...
 

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Matthew Carter runs Acoustic Solutions in Paarden Eiland.  Worth a shot I think

86 Marine Drive
 

BiZKiT

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Avian said:
It's true what you say about advertising to attract the right people... these angles are the ones that the consumers do not always think of.

Just an observation... Trinnov is amazing and the room correction is second to none. It really would bring out the best in the system. Personally, this would be a treat for me to hear, but when it comes to buying, I like to listen to gear that are "price matched" or at least in the ballpark of my gear. So when listening to speakers I would prefer strongly if the amp / amps are similar to what I have. This allows me to get a realistic picture of what the speakers would sound like back home.

When you hear the system on Trinnov separates and you then connect them to an AVR, it won't sound close to the same - and most people run integrated AVR's. Most do not even have the good version of Audyssey. People that shop for M&K 950's wouldn't look at Trinnov, and people that shop for Trinnov wouldn't look at 950's

This is just my perspective! I do however understand the principle of wanting to show the best the speakers has to offer...

I agree 100%
 

stevanbuxt

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Avian said:
So I've been shopping around for new speakers... and people probably think I'm nuts for buying a set of LCR's just to demo them in home and them reselling with a big loss. However after a recent experience I think I'm literally DONE with demo's anywhere except my own room. Not that it's that wonderful, I think it's good, but there are a lot of way better cinema's for sure. At least I'm following the basic principles and you can hear it, which should be the norm for commercial outlets...

So I went to listen to a M&K cinema room recently, I'm in the Western Cape, so I can't speak for how things are in other provinces.

After listening at several types of familiar content for about 30mins I call it quits. The guy was very nice and very accomodating and expected probably the opposite of what I then told him. That the system sounded quite bad and my current one was significantly better, but I could at least get an idea of what the speakers sounded like.

First, let me list the positives :
Very friendly and good service. Accomodating and pleasant experiece.
Decent sized room with good lighting.
Center speaker mounted at correct height.
All M&K speakers used for LCR and surround / ceiling.
Basic carpet.

Negatives :
Tiny screen, probably 85", maybe 100", but it looks smaller.
Projector overthrowing, just take 5 mins to center it at least.
Only single couch so you can only evaluate one small listening area.
Non AT screen with screen high and horizontal center below it - can at least do 3 identical LCR's, screen high enough that you can vertical mount and your neck will be fine, it's just a demo duration that you look a little upwards.
All gear off center to left of room - no reason.
Side LCR's high up on walls and close to screen - so way above height it should be for atmos, resulting in no vertical seperation and narrow soundstage due to narrow spacing.
All surrounds also same height and thus making the atmos useless.
Only 2 atmos speakers - why not 4, it's a long room, 6m+
Runs off integrated AVR, which is fine for those speakers, but I asked to listen to the S150's on seperates - misunderstanding I guess.
Doesn't know what room correction was used - not sure it was run to be honest.
Velodyne single 12" sub just placed randomly - seriously?
Left wall (entire wall) ONLY covered with thin FOAM "absorption", thus giving UNI-lateral absorption of only the high frequencies - skewing the whole freq spectrum and only unilateral as well - this just illustrated a total lack of interest to literally just google that most basic of room treatment materials and principles. Shocking.
FULLY reflective rear wall - same as above, NOTHING bouncing off the rear wall is good... O but there are wallpaper with pretty pictures, that makes up for it!

I could go on, but by now you get the picture. It was good equipment, but it was one of the worst sounding systems I've ever heard, and probably not 50% of what it should sound like.

Now all of this said, they are suppliers to retailers and do not sell to the public. But why bother with a demo room at all when you do it like that? Are most people impressed by the complete lack of clarity and boomy one note bloated bass with narrow soundstage and no height seperation? Or do most people just want to get they're ears blown away, if it goes loud and there's lots of bass it's epic? Am I way to critical here? I'm shopping for around 100k priced LCR's, am I asking too much? I'm just frustrated that there are such well known and easy principles to follow to set up a room to give a decent balanced sound and bring the best out of the gear - but it's just not being done. Is it a lack of knowledge (basic, especially if it's your job) or a total lack of interest? Is it just the Western Cape?

Luckily there are places that spend some time setting up their gear and has room treatment and it makes a big difference. Still I feel this is an area where there can be a lot of improvement by all commercial outlets.

Anyhow, rant over. I just thought I'd share my experience here and maybe get some sympathy, or critique, either way, feel free to discuss.
Agree 100 percent  as a person who has produced a feature film amidst a lot of documentary etc since 1996 across multiple continents incl Hollywood  and European Festival experience. I learned by being in the Dolby accredited room around sound design for a feature film . There are some Dolby Atmos and other accredited places in SA... but its few of us who see both sides.

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk

 

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Avian said:
Non AT screen with screen high and horizontal center below it - can at least do 3 identical LCR's, screen high enough that you can vertical mount and your neck will be fine, it's just a demo duration that you look a little upwards.
All gear off center to left of room - no reason.
Left wall (entire wall) ONLY covered with thin FOAM "absorption", thus giving UNI-lateral absorption of only the high frequencies - skewing the whole freq spectrum and only unilateral as well - this just illustrated a total lack of interest to literally just google that most basic of room treatment materials and principles. Shocking.
FULLY reflective rear wall - same as above, NOTHING bouncing off the rear wall is good... O but there are wallpaper with pretty pictures, that makes up for it!

People who sell foam as a valid acoustical treatment should be ashamed in 90% of cases. Almost universally when one encounters it used as major treatment the best course of action is removal when there are well performing loudspeakers at play.

In the market out there, the sale is not really often concluded on the basis of technical demos, at least not comparatively.

Theater is a human voice centered medium, but the narration is frequently near field cardioid recorded and warmer than natural. The medium is both a projection to suggest an inner voice and to detach the narration from the visuals on screen. Thus people will associate boom and mud with added warmth temporarily. In a theater or a proper acoustic space one gets the more intimate warmth but a voice remains coherent and floating. In some of the acoustic atrocities it's disorientating and only the override of the visual senses over the auditory make people willing to ignore it I guess, but anything out of balance won't ever lean a listener to relax psycho-acoustically.

The lock down has seen quite a few looking to produce content on streaming platforms. Even with directional mics and near field recordings. In those streams about audio gear it's often sad to hear someone wax lyrical about some gear, all the while sounding alien.
 

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Avian, you've hit the nail on the head.

Without going into a saga of reasons, I heartily agree that change is needed. unfortunately it won't comes from Nando's. The 'industry' globally is very divided - those who sell products, and those who deliver experiences. There are many factors to take into account for both which would make a saga here but part one of many. Think rental, overheads, salaries, couriers, insurances.

Alas all of those can be set aside, and effectively addressed through actually doing business properly, but as with all things, there are caveats that need to be taken into account because the differences between moving boxes and providing experiences is vast - much like your summation in your second to last line - "there can be a lot of improvement by all commercial outlets". Of course there can, but Commercial outlets have the primary aim to make money; they sell product. for those of us who sell service, and happen to supply product alongside it that meets specific functional and technical requirements, it's a different story. 

Part of doing business properly is not asking the customer what they want, nor asking how much they want to spend. The customer will never be honest with their budget - the salesman will exploit it fully. The customer also doesn't know what they want-want, because what they want and describe isn't normally what they actually need. If at the end of the day it is specific enough, as per your case, then you can damn well do the best possible to make sure that setup and demonstration showcases the product to its fullest potential. They're not called demonstration rooms for nothing.

Another part of the processes that once you've defined, with empathy, what the ballpark requirements are, then only can you put a ballpark on likely costs, with intelligent compromise. Just like you measure three times and cut once, you first design for the right room, the right requirement, the right expectation, and then you put a budget too it. So many dealers don't know the difference between margin and markup how can you expect them to know the difference between performance of a dedicated 100w power amp driving a pair of 85dB (1w/1m) brand X floor standers, at eg 3.2m, and a pair of Brand Y in wall speakers at 97dB (1w/1m) being powered off the main channels off an AVR. You do the math. but they don't. because they don't charge for time.

Traditionally they put the horse before the cart. They sell the bricks to the customer before the architect has designed the house. I could fill pages with analogies of how badly things are done; without design, empathy or engagement. Any work we do, whether that yields a R150k cinema, a R1.5m, or a R15m behemoth starts in exactly the same way; with design. And in all honestly, if the customer doesn't understand that paying for design is important, then there are plenty of dealers willing to sell them products. But products alone are not what make the system, or systems work.

The beauty of cinema and cinema design is that there are references, and recommended practises, and standards to adhere too. Hifi? not a chance. Cinema, absolutely. Which actually makes it easy; you want to achieve 9, how do you go about doing so? well, sir, 3+3+3=9, 7+2=9, and 5+4=9, in fact, 3+8+4-6=9, so there are many ways you can achieve something when you know where you have to end up. The challenge for the wider audience is, ultimately, do you actually know what that something is and where you want to end up, because then its a walk in the park.

Right, I'll crawl back into my cave now :)

By all means, our showroom in Gardens is nowhere near perfect, nor to everyone's taste. However, we have put in a lot of effort to make it accommodating, to make it sound incredible, to make it look incredible, to allow for multiple use case scenarios, and to cater to dealers who wish to show customers what can be done when cinema is done with proper planning and design, regardless of whether they have a budget for a Trinnov / Barco / whatever or go for an entire cinema package or not.
 

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Chris - CDI said:
Avian, you've hit the nail on the head.

Without going into a saga of reasons, I heartily agree that change is needed. unfortunately it won't comes from Nando's. The 'industry' globally is very divided - those who sell products, and those who deliver experiences. There are many factors to take into account for both which would make a saga here but part one of many. Think rental, overheads, salaries, couriers, insurances.

Alas all of those can be set aside, and effectively addressed through actually doing business properly, but as with all things, there are caveats that need to be taken into account because the differences between moving boxes and providing experiences is vast - much like your summation in your second to last line - "there can be a lot of improvement by all commercial outlets". Of course there can, but Commercial outlets have the primary aim to make money; they sell product. for those of us who sell service, and happen to supply product alongside it that meets specific functional and technical requirements, it's a different story. 

Part of doing business properly is not asking the customer what they want, nor asking how much they want to spend. The customer will never be honest with their budget - the salesman will exploit it fully. The customer also doesn't know what they want-want, because what they want and describe isn't normally what they actually need. If at the end of the day it is specific enough, as per your case, then you can damn well do the best possible to make sure that setup and demonstration showcases the product to its fullest potential. They're not called demonstration rooms for nothing.

Another part of the processes that once you've defined, with empathy, what the ballpark requirements are, then only can you put a ballpark on likely costs, with intelligent compromise. Just like you measure three times and cut once, you first design for the right room, the right requirement, the right expectation, and then you put a budget too it. So many dealers don't know the difference between margin and markup how can you expect them to know the difference between performance of a dedicated 100w power amp driving a pair of 85dB (1w/1m) brand X floor standers, at eg 3.2m, and a pair of Brand Y in wall speakers at 97dB (1w/1m) being powered off the main channels off an AVR. You do the math. but they don't. because they don't charge for time.

Traditionally they put the horse before the cart. They sell the bricks to the customer before the architect has designed the house. I could fill pages with analogies of how badly things are done; without design, empathy or engagement. Any work we do, whether that yields a R150k cinema, a R1.5m, or a R15m behemoth starts in exactly the same way; with design. And in all honestly, if the customer doesn't understand that paying for design is important, then there are plenty of dealers willing to sell them products. But products alone are not what make the system, or systems work.

The beauty of cinema and cinema design is that there are references, and recommended practises, and standards to adhere too. Hifi? not a chance. Cinema, absolutely. Which actually makes it easy; you want to achieve 9, how do you go about doing so? well, sir, 3+3+3=9, 7+2=9, and 5+4=9, in fact, 3+8+4-6=9, so there are many ways you can achieve something when you know where you have to end up. The challenge for the wider audience is, ultimately, do you actually know what that something is and where you want to end up, because then its a walk in the park.

Right, I'll crawl back into my cave now :)

By all means, our showroom in Gardens is nowhere near perfect, nor to everyone's taste. However, we have put in a lot of effort to make it accommodating, to make it sound incredible, to make it look incredible, to allow for multiple use case scenarios, and to cater to dealers who wish to show customers what can be done when cinema is done with proper planning and design, regardless of whether they have a budget for a Trinnov / Barco / whatever or go for an entire cinema package or not.

Hi Chris

Thank you for your insights! You bring up a lot of valid points, things that we (the consumers) many times don't think about.

I usually try to thank and praise rather than complain, so as said before, I'm coming from a place of constructive criticism. As you've said, there are well known guidelines that one would expect would be followed, even just the basic ones.

I think in the end, personally, I would like / appreciate (and I suspect I'm not alone) a system where the retailer not just moves boxes, but also values education of their target market. This will lead to an evolution among the community and improve user experience across the board, creating trust among consumers and inspiring confidence in enthusiasts that are well informed. A part of me hopes that we can get there one day.

A good place to start is just to make sure that the very basics are at least adhered to when setting up a demo room.

Thanks again for taking the time and also highlighting some points / facts that are frequently overlooked by the end user!
 

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Avian said:
I think in the end, personally, I would like / appreciate (and I suspect I'm not alone) a system where the retailer not just moves boxes, but also values education of their target market. This will lead to an evolution among the community and improve user experience across the board, creating trust among consumers and inspiring confidence in enthusiasts that are well informed. A part of me hopes that we can get there one day.

A good place to start is just to make sure that the very basics are at least adhered to when setting up a demo room.

Avian, I think it would be valuable for your sanity to meet with me at Christiaan's office so that I can take you through his Experience Center and present to you how Christiaan has strived to achieve this continually over the past 8 years. I have been very fortunate to work very closely with him on numerous projects, with many clients of mine visiting his Experience Center.
I feel that this will certainly shed new light on how some of us believe in professional demonstration facilities, but sometimes they are less known to the general public.
 

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I have found most stores a let down is a few ways. I've popped in to a few over the last few months wanting to hear a high end system and see where it compared to my modest one but I am yet to be  successful, unless high-end is snake oil.

Firstly there's a snobbery. Very rarely are you offered a demo. The guys see you're a fan but most won't say: "have a listen".  Then I've had those experiences where there are a lot of speakers all bunched up and nowhere near well positioned.

I once went into a shop where there were B&W's linked to two bridged power amps. I asked for a listen and chose Brubeck's Take 5 (in my system the drums appear directly from the left speaker and I wanted to see if the would too in a higher end set-up), except the speakers disappeared completely and everything was playing from the middle because they were playing in mono or sending the same signal to both channels and didn't realise. (I checked that it wasn't a mono version because I got them to play the same track on a separate system with 8 series speakers-and the drums were back in the left speaker).

My worst experience happened about a year ago. I had bought a few modest items from one dealer and was chatting to the guy I had bought from and he offered me a listen. At that stage I was hooked on Carlos Klieber's Beethoven's 5th and would get shivers from hearing it well played in a good system. So at this dealer the guy offers me a demo of R235,000.00 speakers and I ask him to play the track. It was uninspiring, even a bit noisy and brash. He then tells me he was using a low res file and now he'll play it on high res. He plays it. Still the same, but what do you say to a guy who demos R230K speakers and they sound off? So not to create tension I say, "ja that's better." He then tells me he played me the low res file the second time as well and chuckled how he fooled me. Don't know what he was trying but they are now my last port of call for any equipment.

There are some exceptions. I popped in to the Homemation open day. The guys demoed tons of stuff happily. A great experience. Also, I had reason to attend at the offices of Sky Audio and there too I got a great reception, demos and a tour of the equipment.

 

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Morgan Irwin said:
Avian, I think it would be valuable for your sanity to meet with me at Christiaan's office so that I can take you through his Experience Center and present to you how Christiaan has strived to achieve this continually over the past 8 years. I have been very fortunate to work very closely with him on numerous projects, with many clients of mine visiting his Experience Center.
I feel that this will certainly shed new light on how some of us believe in professional demonstration facilities, but sometimes they are less known to the general public.

Thanks, I will surely make a point of getting to this in the future. That's another valid concern you raise, the fact that these facilities are less known to the general public...
 

Timber_MG

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I would love to see more CEDIA type consideration and more people show off their projects from an acoustical pov (THX/Dolby standards are perhaps a starting point, even though the house/X curves are 30 years behind the current science), but for most of the system installs one encounters it's all about moving boxes, to hell with whether it's well integrated/utilized.
 
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