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Audio/Video Hardware => The Vintage Audio section => Topic started by: PJFourie on December 04, 2018, 06:02:03 AM

Title: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: PJFourie on December 04, 2018, 06:02:03 AM
I found these old speakers in my Grandmothers garage. I donít see a model number, but Iím sure theyíre quite old.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/07035fed44c29dae6db214a72b333d3e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/7c5e4e90da3cc3f343876d180a028c9c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/3b89143954dd8f14f99564b6bd8c26be.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/a1b0d6dd1684b7153fc0a6e0fa27ebb1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/343546425b5888b4c7a9a53c117ed3cb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/b047ff2368f69b8b214aa95f06f76cb9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/50c3038032fa6f2390e8f747bafcf813.jpg)


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Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Michon on December 04, 2018, 06:38:20 AM
@Steerpike may know the model number of the speaker.

The transducers are Philips AD8080, as printed on the back of the magnet.
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: PJFourie on December 04, 2018, 06:51:38 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/77b361b72a8d6474946ca569d8d116ea.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/0bf1fd31e8f9099ac4c950a6168892e4.jpg)

6W
8 ohm
Fs - 75Hz
Frequency range is 55-18000 Hz


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Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: PJFourie on December 04, 2018, 06:53:36 AM
https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/philips_ad8080m8.html



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Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: PJFourie on December 04, 2018, 06:55:08 AM
Year: Looks like +- 1973


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Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: PJFourie on December 04, 2018, 06:55:57 AM
@Steerpike may know the model number of the speaker.

The transducers are Philips AD8080, as printed on the back of the magnet.

Thank you Michon. You know too much


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Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Michon on December 04, 2018, 08:00:28 AM
You're welcome.

My knowledge on Philips equipment has many gaps. I have a pair of AD8080 drivers too that may receive cabinets one day.
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Steerpike on December 04, 2018, 09:13:48 AM
Nice ones!
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: PJFourie on December 04, 2018, 09:38:56 AM
Will these work in open baffle together with 12 or 15 inch LF driver?


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Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Michon on December 04, 2018, 10:38:43 AM
Will these work in open baffle together with 12 or 15 inch LF driver?

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With an appropriate filter network between the two drivers it likely will.

@Curlycat has an open baffle loudspeaker using Philips drivers.
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: bearenzo on December 04, 2018, 10:54:51 AM
Will these work in open baffle together with 12 or 15 inch LF driver?


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Should work, but AD8080 is one of their cheaply made full range speakers ( had a pair many years ago , around R400/p )
They sound OK, but not great. If I were you, I'll get a pair of AD9710 for the open baffle design.
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Curlycat on December 04, 2018, 04:29:47 PM
I dunno - those magnets looks small, so correct me if I am wrong, that would translate into a low QTS driver. Normally low QTS drivers (below 0.5) are not advisable for open baffle. You want something with a strong driver that can stop the driver movement in lieu of no enclosure assisting with cone resistance travel.

The nice thing about open baffle is it's easy to try them on a plankie to see how they perform. 8" drivers should make for a nice "full" sound. I would give them I try... who knows... though I am not betting on it  >:D

The Philips 9710 will make a good OB.

At the end of the day, experiment, learn and enjoy. When you arrive at the stage where you smile as a result of your efforts, it is very rewarding. You have to crawl before you can run.

Assisting them with a 12 or a 15 would definitely be advisable yes. I would not do it without it.
Something like the Hybrid series 12 or 15" would be a nice driver to use in an OB design.
https://www.soundselect.co.za/hybrid-12h200c-loose-speaker
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: El Sid on December 05, 2018, 12:52:43 AM
For what it's worth, here is a video of a pair of these. PHILIPS AD8080/M8 70's Vintage FullRange speakers in original Enclosures! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwcKrYWg3cE)

I do find it amusing when guys record their megabuck system on the phone and post it on Youtube - it's come through the crappy mic on the phone into the even crappier phone ADC, been compressed, and then replayed though whatever system the viewer has. You are then meant to be able to notice the "bass slam" or whatever it is they're trying to demonstrate
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Steerpike on December 05, 2018, 01:42:09 AM
The AD8080 originally had alnico magnets in a choice of 2 sizes, then later they went to ferrite, as you have.
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Michon on December 05, 2018, 07:16:47 AM
Normally low QTS drivers (below 0.5) are not advisable for open baffle. You want something with a strong driver that can stop the driver movement in lieu of no enclosure assisting with cone resistance travel.

The Q parameters are measurements related to the control of a transducer’s suspension when it reaches the resonant frequency (Fs). (source: https://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/).

As I read and understand it an appropriate enclosure will compliment a transducer with low Qts' suspension at the Fs, however the suspension can do without that enclosure at frequencies higher than the Fs.

If he is going to cross to the 15" woofer at double the Fs or higher then the Qts of his drivers need not be an issue. An example of this would be GECO's open baffle and the Linkwitz Orion design which use mids with Qts of 0.36 and 0.34 respectively.

I read a few articles by the designer of Lampizator which documented a series DIY open baffle builds of his. If I recall correctly he stated there that contrary to popular opinion he prefers to use low Qts drivers (even as woofers and down to Fs) in open baffle builds. I am not necessarily endorsing his view on this but simply mentioning that some choose not adhere to the suggestion in certain designs. I do not have any experience with this.


The Philips 9710 will make a good OB.

I would like to have a pair of these too in the future.


Here is a pair of 10" Philips drivers for sale on the forum:
https://www.avforums.co.za/index.php/topic,74549.0.html
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Curlycat on December 05, 2018, 11:38:44 AM
The way I understand it is that QTS determines the mechanical function of a driver to stop cone movement. Low QTS means low stopping power. When a driver is in an enclosure, the enclosure itself helps to assist in stopping the cone movement. If a driver is in free air, such as open baffle, it does not have that assistance and a higher QTS is recommended. (I suppose not to exceed the drivers X-Max etc...)

But I am no techno buff. I just like playing around and enjoying this rabbit hole hobby. I do not sheepishly follow convention and like to experiment. Established convention is not always right...  :thinking:
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Ju_dy@RT on December 05, 2018, 02:58:22 PM
I just LOVE the old philips stuff, but for a WHOLE different reason....

My pride and joy is a 1920's Louis kalff Pancake. Not working... just PRETTY to look at :) I have my eye on a working one on e-bay though...  :-X.  It's easy enough to sneak in, in my hand luggage  ;D.

Second to that the pioneer Cs-06a... apparently it sounded sub par, but BOY is it a looker!  If anybody can find me a pair of the those at a reasonable price, I would be forever grateful.
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: El Sid on December 05, 2018, 03:47:02 PM
I just LOVE the old philips stuff, but for a WHOLE different reason....

My pride and joy is a 1920's Louis kalff Pancake. Not working... just PRETTY to look at :) I have my eye on a working one on e-bay though...  :-X.  It's easy enough to sneak in, in my hand luggage  ;D.

Second to that the pioneer Cs-06a... apparently it sounded sub par, but BOY is it a looker!  If anybody can find me a pair of the those at a reasonable price, I would be forever grateful.

There was one, with radio, at Kensington Trading about two years ago - not sure if it worked or not.....

https://www.avforums.co.za/index.php/topic,57675.msg717037.html#msg717037

Call Joel at KT on 011 616 1295
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Ju_dy@RT on December 05, 2018, 04:09:14 PM
^^ thanks, just phoned him... it's still there :)  I might make a turn if the one on e-bay goes too high.  My current one needs a friend :)
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Steerpike on December 06, 2018, 01:56:06 AM
What's the current price? If Judy passes, maybe I should rescue it.
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: DeonC on December 06, 2018, 06:16:51 AM
The way I understand it is that QTS determines the mechanical function of a driver to stop cone movement. Low QTS means low stopping power. When a driver is in an enclosure, the enclosure itself helps to assist in stopping the cone movement. If a driver is in free air, such as open baffle, it does not have that assistance and a higher QTS is recommended. (I suppose not to exceed the drivers X-Max etc...)

But I am no techno buff. I just like playing around and enjoying this rabbit hole hobby. I do not sheepishly follow convention and like to experiment. Established convention is not always right...  :thinking:

I am NOT technical, but here follows how I understand it all:

As I understand it, it's exactly the other way around. Qe is Q-electrical and referes to the motor system, whereas Qm is Q-mechanical and refers to the suspension components (like the spider and the surround). A low Qts is due to a low Qe, and a low Qe indicates a very strong motor (high Qe indicates a weak motor). Have a look at the Eminence range of drivers. The Alpha has the smallest motor and the highest Qe (and Qts). The big Pro-series drivers have larger motors and low Qe.

So to get back, a low Qe means that the motor is very strong and has very high stopping power. An ultimately strong motor will yield a driver with a upward sloping response curve (low freq.s require larger excursion, which the  motor will resist, or so is my understanding). This can in part be overcome with VC design.

A high Qts design has less damping at low frequencies and therefore less control. The roll-off of the OB affects it much less, and therefore it produces more bass (my understanding here is a bit vague). However, many still prefer lower Qts woofers as they produce better quality bass, due to the better control over the cone, and make plans to live with the steeper roll-off.
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: bearenzo on December 06, 2018, 06:41:27 AM
My pride and joy is a 1920's Louis kalff Pancake. Not working... just PRETTY to look at :)


+1
That's probably the most beautiful vintage Art Deco speaker to me.
I saw one in a antique shop near the Old Biscuit Mill , Cape Town two year ago.
Good cosmetic condition, but not tested, cable was cut off, asking R2500
At the time I was hoping to get a good working condition one, so I let it go.
Now if I think again, it's worth a position at home just for its design.
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Curlycat on December 06, 2018, 10:17:29 AM
I am NOT technical, but here follows how I understand it all:

As I understand it, it's exactly the other way around. Qe is Q-electrical and referes to the motor system, whereas Qm is Q-mechanical and refers to the suspension components (like the spider and the surround). A low Qts is due to a low Qe, and a low Qe indicates a very strong motor (high Qe indicates a weak motor). Have a look at the Eminence range of drivers. The Alpha has the smallest motor and the highest Qe (and Qts). The big Pro-series drivers have larger motors and low Qe.

So to get back, a low Qe means that the motor is very strong and has very high stopping power. An ultimately strong motor will yield a driver with a upward sloping response curve (low freq.s require larger excursion, which the  motor will resist, or so is my understanding). This can in part be overcome with VC design.

A high Qts design has less damping at low frequencies and therefore less control. The roll-off of the OB affects it much less, and therefore it produces more bass (my understanding here is a bit vague). However, many still prefer lower Qts woofers as they produce better quality bass, due to the better control over the cone, and make plans to live with the steeper roll-off.

Thanks for that correction @DeonC  :thumbs: Yup, it's indeed the other way around. :giggle:

Here is a nice youtube video explaining it all.
https://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn

The higher the QTS number means, the drivers have less ability to come to rest, after the electrical signal has ceased.  For dry bass seems lower around 0.5 - 0.6 is the norm, and for warm sounding speakers around 0.8 - 1.0. The middle of the road form many people seems to be 0.707.
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Ju_dy@RT on December 06, 2018, 10:49:56 AM
What's the current price? If Judy passes, maybe I should rescue it.

R3500... including what I think is a defunct amp.  Pretty much the average price locally IMHO... so not a steal as I think the one he has, has cosmetic damage on the face of the speaker which for me is a biggy. Also, I'm not so much interested in the amp... Really just the speaker, so it's a bit of a premium to pay if that's all I'm after.   On the flip side, they don't come around that often.

I paid about R2500 a year ago for a much nicer looking one, although not working.  In Europe the speaker alone HAS SOLD for anything between 70 pounds and 250 pounds... with a few chancers trying to sell for 2-3 times that.  :???:

So, IMHO realistically the combo is worth R3500.. if the speaker at least is working and if the face of the speaker is cosmetically good (which I'm not sure it is). However, I only really want the speaker... so have to place my worth on that alone.
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: Ju_dy@RT on December 06, 2018, 10:51:47 AM

+1
That's probably the most beautiful vintage Art Deco speaker to me.
I saw one in a antique shop near the Old Biscuit Mill , Cape Town two year ago.
Good cosmetic condition, but not tested, cable was cut off, asking R2500
At the time I was hoping to get a good working condition one, so I let it go.
Now if I think again, it's worth a position at home just for its design.

A dark red one?  yeah... I think that one is this side of the world now  ;)
Title: Re: Old Philips Speakers
Post by: bearenzo on December 07, 2018, 10:59:26 AM
A dark red one?  yeah... I think that one is this side of the world now  ;)

Yes, I think that's one. ( with price tag of R2500, at the left hand side shelf of the store near the entrance )
How interesting we have our eyes fall on the same item then. ( I was there at early Sep 2017 )
Great to know it end up in your hands.  :dop: