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Open Chat => Open Talk => Topic started by: Honda xr on January 07, 2020, 10:47:35 AM

Title: Political Correctness
Post by: Honda xr on January 07, 2020, 10:47:35 AM
Seeing as my post about the root cause of climate change was removed after the use of the name of the church whose priests are so often accused of other improprieties, I put it to you that political correctness is fake. It does not describe the real world. Your views?
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Tzs503gp on January 07, 2020, 11:52:23 AM
On the internet political correctness is very real. Does it represent the real world? Depends on where youíre standing. In any case, if you want to change the real world, pick up a stone from around where youíre standing and hurl it at whatever it is you donít like. Be prepared to deal with the consequences. On the internet, itís all just bull excrement.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 07, 2020, 11:56:20 AM
I didn't see your post, so don't take my comment as an indictment, but I see a lot of people spouting a lot of hateful, ignorant things with little to no understanding or self-awareness and then arguing against political correctness in defence when they're called out for it. Personally I find the image of Greta on the verge of a gang-bang offensive on multiple levels, but I believe everyone should have the right to express themselves. This isn't my platform however, and those running it have the right to decide what appears on it.

I will point out though that overpopulation is not the root cause of global warming, it's the excess of CO2 primarily from burning fossil fuels. Though of course there are many other contributing factors, flatulent livestock (not raised in rural Africa) well outstripping human output being one of them - if that's a concern, try cutting down on how much meat you consume. Overpopulation is not the concern we once thought it was, with ageing populations in first world countries and social advancements in poorer nations it's predicted that we'll stabilise at around 9 Billion, with a higher than 25% chance the population might actually begin to fall by 2100.

Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: chrisflex on January 07, 2020, 02:46:54 PM
Joe Gould: In the winter, I'm a Buddhist; in the summer, I'm a nudist!

From Joe Gouldís Secret
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Den123 on January 07, 2020, 03:42:17 PM
 This should be interesting...
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Timber_MG on January 07, 2020, 03:45:27 PM
First off, this thread smells of bait...the kind that results in post count dropping


if that's a concern, try cutting down on how much meat you consume. Overpopulation is not the concern we once thought it was, with ageing populations in first world countries and social advancements in poorer nations it's predicted that we'll stabilise at around 9 Billion, with a higher than 25% chance the population might actually begin to fall by 2100.

The actual CO2 output from meat is paltry compared to most other human endeavour in industrial living. The Vegan nutcases will segregate the animal output from the environmental net outcome to further their ideological arguments and the media is happy to cash in on the click bait. Cows on grass are a net sink net if they aren't housed on concrete and their water consumption....lands back in the eco system that houses them along with fermented cellulose which is fantastic for grasslands ability to build deep root systems and regulate water in time of drought. This assumes herd behaviour that's natural or mimics such. The question isn't temp rise, it's what influence one can have on it and there isn't certainty, just correlations with some models with limited predictive power. n=1 experiment. We had this whole thing with CFCs and the ozone hole and the models that came from the same quarters are now so far out of whack they are rarely mentioned again.

The over-consumption of refined grains most certainly is a health disaster for humanity, and a great boon for dentistry and the pharma industry around diabesity.

I ignore the media around above mentioned kid activist, but I pity her for her obvious malnourishment. Her bone structure is indicative of lagging behind many milestones, sad.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Trompie67 on January 07, 2020, 03:58:29 PM
I hate PC. Liberal fascists dictating what can & cannot be said or sometimes even done.

It's simple. Do not set out to knowingly and/or willingly harm anyone with what you say. You may get it wrong every now & then, however then just remember the one single thing about offense: Offense is always taken. Never given.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kgx0krZh/PC.jpg)
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 07, 2020, 04:26:05 PM
The actual CO2 output from meat is paltry compared to most other human endeavour in industrial living.

I know, I pointed that out. I mentioned cattle in relation to humans only in terms of direct impact (i.e. flatulence) jokingly.

The Vegan nutcases will segregate the animal output from the environmental net outcome to further their ideological arguments and the media is happy to cash in on the click bait. Cows on grass are a net sink net if they aren't housed on concrete and their water consumption....lands back in the eco system that houses them along with fermented cellulose which is fantastic for grasslands ability to build deep root systems and regulate water in time of drought.

Well that sounds wonderful, but it does not reflect the current reality of the cattle industry or the excessive consumption of meat its complexes were designed to meet.

This assumes herd behaviour that's natural or mimics such. The question isn't temp rise, it's what influence one can have on it and there isn't certainty, just correlations with some models with limited predictive power. n=1 experiment. We had this whole thing with CFCs and the ozone hole and the models that came from the same quarters are now so far out of whack they are rarely mentioned again.

So a climate change denier, history is not going to be kind to our generation. The concentration of CO2 is increasing because we're burning fossil fuels, it's not that complicated.

I ignore the media around above mentioned kid activist, but I pity her for her obvious malnourishment. Her bone structure is indicative of lagging behind many milestones, sad.

Oh, she's malnourished, poor dear. Well, carry on in good health, we'll be long gone before any of this global warming stuff will affect us anyway - let future generations fend for themselves. Pity we have to listen to them kick up a fuss about it on our way out the door though.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Timber_MG on January 07, 2020, 05:47:52 PM
So a climate change denier, history is not going to be kind to our generation. The concentration of CO2 is increasing because we're burning fossil fuels, it's not that complicated.

Thanks for showing the use of framing. Try again with actual reasoned argument next time pls. Per capita meat consumption is about on even keel with history, historically a bit low perhaps.

Regards global warming, I am well familiar with the mechanisms since middle school and don't deny them. What I will say is that human causation is not causally linked but correlated in terms of the data which makes arguments for causation lack predictive power. I don't call the merits of arguments around climate change, just point that similar models got it wrong with CFCs for the same lack of predictive power and that other than corollaries not much is currently known. The FFT and wavelet thermal models predict we're on an upwards slope for some time still, let's see how it pans out as we will. The earth has been hotter and colder in human history.

The human caused increase in CO2 is indeed fuelled by fossil fuels that sank carbon millions of years ago into the ground. The only question that interests me is the magnitude of the human influence and I haven't seen conclusive evidence yet. You're quick with shooting a messenger making hardly any substantive points. You make bold claims. I'm not bothered by you, just prefer to have reasoned rationale and not hysterical discourse.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: legro on January 07, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Sjoe^^, let me just quickly make a point and then get out of the way of the heavy hitters. ;D

I see some similarities between political correctness and alcohol: both serve as a social lubricant and make half truths and blatant lies sound palatable.

Alcohol firmly gets my vote though - political correctness requires so much more effort and concentration.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Katji on January 07, 2020, 06:29:50 PM
The original topic /sort of/ = "politically correct."
Anyone who writes that without quotes is part of the problem.

Whatever.

Quote
I don't call the merits of arguments around climate change, just point that similar models got it wrong with CFCs [...]

This now is a model of propaganda.  The latest episode being The Greta Thunberg Show.

Yes, some of those memes are disgusting. "Take from whence it comes."

And btw, something i saw yesterday reminded me how they changed it from "global warming" to "climate change" after so many countries had the coldest winters in the last 100 years or so.

So ja, it took a while for people to get to some understanding that smoke does not just blow away.

Quote
[...]  The FFT and wavelet thermal models predict we're on an upwards slope for some time still, let's see how it pans out as we will. The earth has been hotter and colder in human history.

Quite extremely so too.
That's what gets me.  It's like people are on about climate change caused by [only] human activities, but how stable do they think this planetary system really is, what do they think it is? 

Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Timber_MG on January 07, 2020, 06:47:08 PM
I must look up these memes perhaps. Only one I've encountered yet is where she was voice cast auto tuned to a death metal tune after some speech calling for panic. All I see is a girl with some physical health issues and a lot of media hype around children skipping school on Fridays to protest...not my scene so I focus my energies elsewhere.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Katji on January 07, 2020, 07:15:11 PM
Don't bother.  The only ones that weren't quite puerile were those referring to her nonsense "you stole my childhood," compared to child labour and so on, which is beside the point anyway.  Then again, all natural reactions to a performance like that.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Den123 on January 07, 2020, 07:26:36 PM
I thought this might be an ďactiveĒ thread.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 07, 2020, 09:30:45 PM
Thanks for showing the use of framing. Try again with actual reasoned argument next time pls. Per capita meat consumption is about on even keel with history, historically a bit low perhaps.

Regards global warming, I am well familiar with the mechanisms since middle school and don't deny them. What I will say is that human causation is not causally linked but correlated in terms of the data which makes arguments for causation lack predictive power. I don't call the merits of arguments around climate change, just point that similar models got it wrong with CFCs for the same lack of predictive power and that other than corollaries not much is currently known. The FFT and wavelet thermal models predict we're on an upwards slope for some time still, let's see how it pans out as we will. The earth has been hotter and colder in human history.

The human caused increase in CO2 is indeed fuelled by fossil fuels that sank carbon millions of years ago into the ground. The only question that interests me is the magnitude of the human influence and I haven't seen conclusive evidence yet. You're quick with shooting a messenger making hardly any substantive points. You make bold claims. I'm not bothered by you, just prefer to have reasoned rationale and not hysterical discourse.

A reasoned, rational person wouldn't feel qualified to disagree with the overwhelming scientific consensus (80*-97 percent of actively publishing climate scientists agree on global warming):

https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

*I include the 80% as certain defenders of the status quo have argued against 97%, and this is the lowest feasible number I've seen proffered.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Timber_MG on January 07, 2020, 11:06:15 PM
A reasoned, rational person

You can infer whatever you like (we likely don't even know each others positions and are speaking past one another in a forum that likely doesn't concern itself much with the topic). Without getting into any specifics one assumes that this is just an internet post >>null.

I will ask one question that I have not been able to answer for myself satisfactorily yet and leave it at that: What precisely gives one confidence that CO2 concentrations at current and projected levels, if they are curtailed (if that is even possible without tyranny is another question), will have a worthwhile effect on society by means of projecting global temperature change? Meaning I am asking on what foundation should I prioritise (say no to other things) whether I recycle, conserve water, invest in electrical energy efficiency (embodies CO2 in replacement parts), reduced hydrocarbon emissions, take moral stances on my food sources, surveil for safety, etc...?

I see far greater benefits to my imminent environment that I can quantify at this stage so I am focussing my energy on those that have a deterministic benefits on my family and my neighbourhood. Reducing CO2 emissions to pre-industrial levels to my mind doesn't feature on the same scale. You make big claims about moral outrage I might be subject to for not accepting the position wholesale, what specifically is it that gives you the confidence that you are likely to be right and that this change is achievable?
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: goonchild on January 08, 2020, 12:33:51 AM
I am strangely reminded of an acquaintance who once (ironically, I thought, in the light of other views he has expressed) made the extremely sceptical and empiricist statement that he would 'believe in' the theory of evolution the day he saw a monkey give birth to a human.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 08, 2020, 07:37:08 AM
I will ask one question that I have not been able to answer for myself satisfactorily yet and leave it at that: What precisely gives one confidence that CO2 concentrations at current and projected levels, if they are curtailed (if that is even possible without tyranny is another question), will have a worthwhile effect on society by means of projecting global temperature change? Meaning I am asking on what foundation should I prioritise (say no to other things) whether I recycle, conserve water, invest in electrical energy efficiency (embodies CO2 in replacement parts), reduced hydrocarbon emissions, take moral stances on my food sources, surveil for safety, etc...?

I see far greater benefits to my imminent environment that I can quantify at this stage so I am focussing my energy on those that have a deterministic benefits on my family and my neighbourhood. Reducing CO2 emissions to pre-industrial levels to my mind doesn't feature on the same scale. You make big claims about moral outrage I might be subject to for not accepting the position wholesale, what specifically is it that gives you the confidence that you are likely to be right and that this change is achievable?

As individuals there is not much we can do, this is true, what we need is for us as to stand together on this as a society, to show our leaders we want change, to support products and initiatives aimed at curbing CO2 emissions, for us all to do our part when and where we can. A kilo of veg produces around 1 kg of CO2, whereas beef produces around 20 kg CO2 per kilo - reducing meat intake and being willing to spend more on the meat you do buy to encourage the sort of cattle raising practices you were discussing earlier.  Walk when you can, there are lots of little things we can all do to reduce our footprint which if we all pull together will have an impact.

At the end of the day, it's our collective will as a society to make this happen that will make the difference. So long as you have people that believe it's all up for debate you're going to have leaders who'll ignore the issue in favour of the wrong sorts of industries. We are on our way to inflicting irreversible changes to our climate systems, but we're not there yet, if we can slow the rate of climate change my personal hope is that we'll be able to invent our way out of this, that technology will be the solution, we just need to buy ourselves enough time.

I'll leave you with this:

There is a bright side

Global decarbonization has accelerated since 2010 and may be on course to keep global warming to 2 degrees C, says a new report to be published in Environmental Research Letters on Dec 2. While overall carbon emissions have increased, the decarbonization has kept the increase low and is ready to push emissions into a decline.

Large decarbonization gains from energy efficiency and modern renewable heat, along with solar and wind, are making it possible to reach the Paris climate goals ďif we take aggressive actions across all sectors of the economy,Ē says study co-author Daniel Kammen, a professor of energy at the University of California, Berkeley in a release.

There are also social tipping points, says Gaffney, including an economic tipping point where the price of renewable energy is dropping below fossil fuels in market after market. ďThe prices for renewables keep falling and performance is improving. This is an unbeatable combination.Ē

More and more countries such as the United Kingdom have reached a political tipping point and adopted 2050 net zero carbon targets. ďThere is now confidence it is achievable and affordable,Ē he said.

And in the United States, candidates for the 2020 presidential elections are putting out ambitious climate action plans.

Over the last 12 months a broad societal awareness tipping point appears to have been reachedóthe Greta Thunberg effectówith millions of young student strikers and many others demanding urgent climate action, he says. At the same time, more and more finance companies, businesses, and cities are adopting tough climate targets.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/11/earth-tipping-point/
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: legro on January 08, 2020, 08:40:11 AM
I am strangely reminded of an acquaintance who once (ironically, I thought, in the light of other views he has expressed) made the extremely sceptical and empiricist statement that he would 'believe in' the theory of evolution the day he saw a monkey give birth to a human.

One wonders if your acquaintance would be convinced by witnessing the reverse.

That seems to be the way we're going.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Crankshaft on January 08, 2020, 10:35:21 AM
Any flat-earth folk here?
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Jason Willemse on January 08, 2020, 10:47:39 AM
Any flat-earth folk here?
Plenty it seems...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: dolt on January 08, 2020, 01:47:25 PM
it seems that in the quest of cross cultural diplomacy, the lines between political correctness and censorship are becoming more and more blurred. I think this is largely due to the general trend of enforced political correctness where non-conformity is a punishable offence.

A case that trended a few years ago about a Canadian university professor that refused to be forced (mandated) to mind his pronouns among certain types of individuals. His position was that he had no issue with being requested to use a specific pronoun by any individual when communicating with them. however, mandating the use of such pronouns, and criminalizing any perceived erroneous use is a serious problem. i.e. the enforcement of political correctness.

fantastic thing about the internet, one can find anything to justify their opinion. The leading search engines employ algorithms to link you to related media once you've encountered something. Hence the rabbit hole into echo chambers. I speak as a person of lesser intelligence than most, but what I have found is that the leading search engines definitely have a left leaning bias, hence the suggested media is almost always left leaning or justifying. So those with partiality to such an affiliation will be sent very quickly into a rabbit hole. However those veering onto the conservative side will be constantly bombarded with irrelevant media that the platforms bias is forcing on its users. I find this is true with an issue such as climate change. it seems most arguments for and against have more to do with american politics than science.

I first encountered the idea of global warming about 30 odd years ago... that time of course it was differently branded with different brand ambassadors. It seems to re brand every decade. from "the greenhouse effect and ozone depletion" and public enemy number 1 being CFC's to "global warming" with al gore and other celebrities and a war against carbon monoxide, and now to "climate change" with a person from a country with the most unsustainable lifestyles on the planet. And now CO2 is the new public enemy.  I don't know what to believe, but anyway, heres a fun video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGqcweY1a3I


Of course the earth is flat!! Haven't you heard of lens distortion?... All the flat pictures from space are made to look round by the lens! This can be proven quite easily with some rudimentary mathematics lifted of the wikipedia!!

Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 08, 2020, 02:11:57 PM
I speak as a person of lesser intelligence than most, but what I have found is that the leading search engines definitely have a left leaning bias, hence the suggested media is almost always left leaning or justifying. So those with partiality to such an affiliation will be sent very quickly into a rabbit hole. However those veering onto the conservative side will be constantly bombarded with irrelevant media that the platforms bias is forcing on its users. I find this is true with an issue such as climate change. it seems most arguments for and against have more to do with american politics than science.

Do you feel it's biased because you can't seem to Google salient arguments in opposition? While short sighted politicians and their wealthy corporate benefactors might have lead you to believe otherwise, this has little to do with right or left leanings - climate change is a fact, not a he said, she said argument.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Katji on January 08, 2020, 02:39:43 PM
Any flat-earth folk here?
No, but there are plenty who do not quite accept the science/physics of electricity.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: dolt on January 08, 2020, 03:19:38 PM
Do you feel it's biased because you can't seem to Google salient arguments in opposition? While short sighted politicians and their wealthy corporate benefactors might have lead you to believe otherwise, this has little to do with right or left leanings - climate change is a fact, not a he said, she said argument.

Actually yes, there are several publicized instances of conservative media and channels being suppressed by youtube. Google searches for specific channels, word for word provide the relevant link after the fifth suggestion or so. The most recent one that comes to mind is Steven Crowder. Twitter is also quite famous for this, like when vox, buzzfeed and huffpost "journalists" were allegedly dog-piled with the #learntocode handle, or when Milo got his account banned. I suspect that climate change hysteria is not much more than a lobbying point between the dems and the conservatives.

From what I understood, the argument against climate change is not that it is non existent, but that it is highly exaggerated by its proponents. It doesn't seem implausible that this can be an attempt to sway public opinion with mass hysteria and panic in order to further a political or financial position... why is there so much of hype just before an election?  They do the same thing with feminisms and the mythical wage gap, so why not with the weather? They already think air conditioning is sexist.


Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: DRNB on January 08, 2020, 03:27:48 PM

A case that trended a few years ago about a Canadian university professor that refused to be forced (mandated) to mind his pronouns among certain types of individuals. His position was that he had no issue with being requested to use a specific pronoun by any individual when communicating with them. however, mandating the use of such pronouns, and criminalizing any perceived erroneous use is a serious problem. i.e. the enforcement of political correctness.

The professor you're talking about is Jordan Petersen. Although I don't always agree 100% with JP I just love watching debates and interviews with him.

And just for interest sake, this is what the same guy has to say about climate change.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBbvehbomrY&t=37s

Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: dolt on January 08, 2020, 03:38:21 PM
The professor you're talking about is Jordan Petersen. Although I don't always agree 100% with JP I just love watching debates and interviews with him.

And just for interest sake, this is what the same guy has to say about climate change.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBbvehbomrY&t=37s

I read one of his books last year. His viewpoints and arguments are all primarily from that of the western perspective. I've seen lectures of him discussing eastern philosophy and displaying hilarious levels of ignorance. But I do quite enjoy listening to his lectures though.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 08, 2020, 06:09:19 PM
Actually yes, there are several publicized instances of conservative media and channels being suppressed by youtube. Google searches for specific channels, word for word provide the relevant link after the fifth suggestion or so. The most recent one that comes to mind is Steven Crowder. Twitter is also quite famous for this, like when vox, buzzfeed and huffpost "journalists" were allegedly dog-piled with the #learntocode handle, or when Milo got his account banned. I suspect that climate change hysteria is not much more than a lobbying point between the dems and the conservatives.

From what I understood, the argument against climate change is not that it is non existent, but that it is highly exaggerated by its proponents. It doesn't seem implausible that this can be an attempt to sway public opinion with mass hysteria and panic in order to further a political or financial position... why is there so much of hype just before an election?  They do the same thing with feminisms and the mythical wage gap, so why not with the weather? They already think air conditioning is sexist.

Ah, you are one of those. Carry on.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Swindlehurstguy on January 08, 2020, 06:35:06 PM
I am opposed to being PC. The truth is often hidden by those who choose to be PC. We would rather everyone says that we are nice people because we are so very PC, in reality, we are just being deceptive. Even this forum perpetuates this mindset. We avoid discussing sensitive issues, politics and religion, why? Because people will upset each other? So we make even more rules just in case people get pissed with each other. Itís fake, I tell you. Not everyone here is NOT perfect. I found that out quite early on when I had a qualified architect from this forum not deliver on what I paid for, no better than a common criminal. Being PC is just societies way of preventing people from saying what they actually think...so if you are too busy being PC why not ask yourself what you really think... and say it, some here and puke be very surprised at how liberating it is to say what you think. BTW. If you think Iím a twit, opinionated or anything else for saying this, post it, just my opinion after all and many of you may well disagree.😜
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Katji on January 08, 2020, 06:45:40 PM
 :giggle:
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Swindlehurstguy on January 08, 2020, 07:42:59 PM
Glad I made someone smile LOL. Forgot to mention... and if you like cables, even expensive ones... say it, if others donít agree or like them they need not buy them. They can use farm fence wire if they like, works for me!
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: JonnyP on January 08, 2020, 09:41:14 PM
Ah what the heck, Iíve held off getting involved here but am currently sheltering from the rain with a nice pint of ale.  Here goes:

ĎItís Political Correctness gone madí is a right wing/reactionary cover all for excusing things people say that they really mean which are unacceptable for example:

ĎI made a joke about Greta the other day and was told it was disablist, itís PC gone madí.  Translation, I hate that there is a young girl with principles standing up for scientific theories which seem to be true so I laugh at her having Aspergers and use it to denigrate her.

ĎItís PC gone mad, I said we should ban all Muslims because they are terrorists and got grief on Twitterí.  Translation, I think anyone from the Middle East is a terrorist as I have no idea about their religion, but they have a beard.

People, be good to one another, and understand that denigrating someone for their beliefs (religious, scientific) is not cool.  Also, remember, we all come from the same ancestor
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: goonchild on January 08, 2020, 10:09:56 PM
An observation in the light of the ostensible nods to science that appeared earlier in this thread: without a (coherent) working definition of 'political correctness' nothing that is not solipsistic or idiocentric can be said about the concept. Definitionless, we cannot critically evaluate the output of the scientific community against the Holey Writ of the Piers Morgan, the Jeremy Clarkson, the Oil Industry etc.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 09, 2020, 11:16:26 AM
Ah what the heck, Iíve held off getting involved here but am currently sheltering from the rain with a nice pint of ale.  Here goes:

ĎItís Political Correctness gone madí is a right wing/reactionary cover all for excusing things people say that they really mean which are unacceptable for example:

ĎI made a joke about Greta the other day and was told it was disablist, itís PC gone madí.  Translation, I hate that there is a young girl with principles standing up for scientific theories which seem to be true so I laugh at her having Aspergers and use it to denigrate her.

ĎItís PC gone mad, I said we should ban all Muslims because they are terrorists and got grief on Twitterí.  Translation, I think anyone from the Middle East is a terrorist as I have no idea about their religion, but they have a beard.

People, be good to one another, and understand that denigrating someone for their beliefs (religious, scientific) is not cool.  Also, remember, we all come from the same ancestor

(https://media.tenor.com/images/039b76f457e474fccd92a26f5562393d/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Katji on January 09, 2020, 12:50:57 PM
Ah what the heck, Iíve held off getting involved here but am currently sheltering from the rain with a nice pint of ale.
:dop:  In England?  - Post pics. 
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Music_Lover on January 09, 2020, 07:05:59 PM
:dop:  In England?  - Post pics.
Durban.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Music_Lover on January 09, 2020, 07:12:16 PM
Can anyone define 'Political Correctness'?

Is it only something practised by the liberal left?
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Katji on January 09, 2020, 09:50:51 PM
Quote
Can anyone define 'Political Correctness'?

Is it only something practised by the liberal left?
No.  It is applied, to some extent, by all authoritarian regimes, including the Abrahamic religions.  (...And also, some which are apparently/supposedly not authoritarian, like where negotiation and compromise and more subtle methods of politics are used, e.g. modern social democracy, like EU/EC.)

However, definition of "political correctness"...Try this - for "politically incorrect," the opposite:

heresy, heretical

noun: heresy
    belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious doctrine.
    "Smith was burned for heresy"

    opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted.
    "the heresy of being uncommitted to the right political dogma"

(The key word there is "right", as in "correct."  Oh, there's another - dogma.)

Of course, the problem with the concept is who gets to judge, who will be the arbiters. 
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: ingenieus on January 09, 2020, 09:53:56 PM
There is a lot of PC around. A bugbear of mine how much of it there is to be found in Netflix series. Once you have seen it you cannot unsee it.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: legro on January 09, 2020, 10:37:50 PM
" the avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."

Easily from the Net.

PC is a form of attempted social engineering, and like most such attempts, based on a lie and doomed to failure.

The key to this failure is highlighted above.

In short, if you need to consult the Political Correctness Manual to teach you respect for, understanding of, and kindness to others, don't bother.

You'll be wasting your time.


Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: goonchild on January 10, 2020, 12:24:32 AM
Politics and society are rather like space and time: fused inseparably. All politics (whether left or right, forward or backward) is about social engineering, even if like Saint Madge of Thatcher one doesn't believe in the existence of societies.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica's basic entry on 'political correctness' (https://www.britannica.com/topic/political-correctness (https://www.britannica.com/topic/political-correctness)) provides a useful reminder of the term's origins in the efforts of Lenin's Communist Party to enforce adherence to the party line, efforts greatly expanded and deepened by Stalin. Groupthink, as Orwell called it, was and still is the point - regardless of political orientation. You will find such efforts to enforce orthodoxy (to widely varying degrees of enthusiasm) in every human organisation - particularly organisations claiming to be moved by or based on any kind of 'vision' or 'mission statement' or 'revelation'. This includes notably and comically the Republic Party of Trumpistan, not exactly a lefty pinko-commie-liberal enterprise, whose members daily abase and humiliate themselves in the hopes that their glorious leader will lift up his countenance upon them and give them political favour.

As JohnnyP implied, much of the whining against so-called 'political correctness' (not all of it, definition pending) seems to me to be little more than an attempt by complainants to create for themselves a discursive and 'intellectual', if that's the word, space beyond their ears in which they can 'legitimately' express or indulge in and thus impose their prejudices.

If 'political correctness' = 'the avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against' = bad, is the 'correct' position that its opposite (i.e. the use of such forms of expression or action) must therefore be good? Were such a view to achieve critical hegemonic mass would it not itself constitute 'the' politically 'correct' position?
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: dolt on January 10, 2020, 07:43:42 AM
There is a lot of PC around. A bugbear of mine how much of it there is to be found in Netflix series. Once you have seen it you cannot unsee it.

+1
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: oradba69 on January 10, 2020, 08:26:18 AM
Saw this PC incorrect post on another bforum and thought about this thread.  :)

Kevin Myers (born 30 March 1947) is an Irish journalist and writer. He writes for the Irish edition of the Sunday Times, having previously been a columnist for the Irish Independent and a former contributor to The Irish Times, where he wrote the "An Irishman's Diary" opinion column several times weekly. Until 2005, he wrote for the UK Sunday Telegraph.
His articles criticise left-wing opinion and the "liberal consensus", sometimes incorporating hyperbole, sarcasm and parody.
This essay appeared in The Irish Independent:
Somalia is not a humanitarian disaster; it is an evolutionary disaster. The current drought is not the worst in 50 years, as the BBC and all the aid organisations claim.
It is nothing compared to the droughts in 1960/61 or 73/74.
And there are continuing droughts every 5 years or so.
It's just that there are now four times the population; having been kept alive by famine relief, supplied by aid organisations, over the past 50 years.
So, of course, the effects of any drought now, is a famine. They cannot even feed themselves in a normal rainfall year.
Worst yet, the effects of these droughts, and poor nutrition in the first 3 years of the a child's life, have a lasting effect on the development of the infant brain, so that if they survive, they will never achieve a normal IQ .
Consequently, they are selectively breeding a population who cannot be educated, let alone one that is not being educated; a recipe for disaster.
We are seeing this impact now, and it can only exacerbate, to the detriment of their neighbours, and their environment as well. This scenario can only end in an even worse disaster; with even worse suffering, for those
benighted people, and their descendants.
Eventually, some mechanism will intervene, be it war, disease or starvation.
So what do we do? Let them starve?
What a dilemma for our Judeo/Christian/Islamic Ethos; as well as Hindu/Buddhist morality.
And this is beginning to happen in Kenya, Ethiopia and other countries in Asia, like Pakistan.
Is this the beginning of the end of civilisation?
AFRICA is giving nothing to anyone outside Africa -- apart from AIDS and new diseases.
Even as we see African states refusing to take action to restore something resembling civilisation
in Zimbabwe, the Begging bowl for Ethiopia is being passed around to us out of Africa, yet again.
It is nearly 25 years since the famous Feed The World campaign began in Ethiopia, and in that time
Ethiopia's population has grown from 33.5 million to 78+ million today.
So, why on earth should I do anything to encourage further catastrophic demographic growth in that country?
Where is the logic? There is none.
To be sure, there are two things saying that logic doesn't count.
One is my conscience, and the other is the picture, yet again, of another wide-eyed child, yet again, gazing,
yet again, at the camera, which yet again, captures the tragedy of children starving.
Sorry. My conscience has toured this territory on foot and financially.
Unlike most of you, I have been to Ethiopia; like most of you, I have stumped up the loot
to charities to stop starvation there.
The wide-eyed boy-child we saved, 20 years or so ago, is now a low IQ, AK 47-bearing moron,
siring children whenever the whim takes him and blaming the world because he is uneducated, poor and left behind.
There is no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory and dysfunctional economic,social and sexual system but I do not know what it is.
There is, on the other hand, every reason not to write a column like this.
It will win no friends and will provoke the self-righteous wrath of, well, the self-righteous hand wringing,letter writing wrathful individuals; a species which never fails to contaminate almost every debate in Irish life with its sneers and its moral superiority. It will also probably enrage some of the finest men in Irish life, like John O'Shea, of Goal; and the Finucane brothers, men whom I admire enormously.
So be it.
But, please, please, you self-righteously wrathful, spare me mention of our own Irish Famine, with this or that lazy analogy.
There is no comparison.
Within 20 years of the Famine, the Irish population was down by 30%. Over the equivalent period, thanks to
western food, the Mercedes 10-wheel truck and the Lockheed Hercules plane, Ethiopia's population has more than doubled.
Alas, that wretched country is not alone in its madness.
Somewhere, over the rainbow, lies Somalia, another fine land of violent, AK 47-toting, khat-chewing,
girl-circumcising, permanently tumescent layabouts and housing pirates of the ocean.
Indeed, we now have almost an entire continent of sexually hyperactive, illiterate indigents, with tens of
millions of people who only survive because of help from the outside world or allowances by the
semi-communist Governments they voted for, money supplied by borrowing it from the World Bank!
This dependency has not stimulated political prudence or common sense.
Indeed, voodoo idiocy seems to be in the ascendant, with the president of South Africa being a firm believer in
the efficacy of a little tap water on the post-coital wee-wee as a sure preventative against AIDS infection.
Needless to say, poverty, hunger and societal meltdown have not prevented idiotic wars involving Tigre,
Uganda, Congo, Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea etcetera.
Broad brush-strokes, to be sure.
But broad brush-strokes are often the way that history paints its gaudier, if more decisive, chapters.
Japan, China, Russia, Korea, Poland, Germany, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the 20th century have
endured worse broad brush-strokes than almost any part of Africa. They are now -- one way or another -- virtually all giving aid to or investing in Africa, whereas Africa, with its vast savannahís and its lush pastures, is giving almost nothing to anyone, apart from AIDS.
Meanwhile, Africa's peoples are outstripping their resources and causing catastrophic ecological degradation.
By 2050, the population of Ethiopia will be 177 million; the equivalent of France, Germany and Benelux today,
but located on the parched and increasingly Protein-free wastelands of the Great Rift Valley.
So, how much sense does it make for us actively to increase the adult population of what is already a vastly
over-populated, environmentally devastated and economically dependent country?
How much morality is there in saving an Ethiopian child from starvation today, for it to survive to a life of brutal circumcision, poverty, hunger, violence and sexual abuse, resulting in another half-dozen such wide-eyed children, with comparably jolly little lives ahead of them?
Of course, it might make you feel better, which is a prime reason for so much charity!
But that is not good enough.
For self-serving generosity has been one of the curses of Africa. It has sustained political systems which would otherwise have collapsed.
It prolonged the Eritrean-Ethiopian war by nearly a decade.
It is inspiring Bill Gates' programme to rid the continent of malaria, when, in the almost complete absence of personal self-discipline, that disease is one of the most efficacious forms of population-control now operating.
If his programme is successful, tens of millions of children who would otherwise have died in infancy
will survive to adulthood, he boasts.
Oh good: then what? I know, let them all come here.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Timber_MG on January 10, 2020, 08:41:28 AM
Goon, if that boolean inversion is your sincere take on that argument then the cognitive dissonance you exhibit around side stepping the biggest lessons of the past 200 years in Gedankenwerk around societal change are not surprising. A moral standard "trying to do good" has seen the backside of enough people in the last century and a bit and it's apparent that expending effort in couching this any exact manner for you is a waste.

Most human endeavour is to be taken as someone acting in good faith. However the "moral" stance these days is less frequently tied to people's actions. It's too often degenerated to little more than a virtue signal aligned to some zeitgeist/moving goal of some societal influence, whatever one may fix one's gaze onto ... and that is quite fickle in this fast advancing age with accepted standard of behaviour today may loose you your job next year. Cui bono?

The authoritarian aspect of it: if a simple working guy has to fear for his job for a single uncautious mistake how far away is one from a Moscow show trial or a NSDAP rally or a struggle session?

The lessons of Lenin and co and what ideological nonsense fought it out in Weimar Germany and what followed gave Mr Orwell, Huxley enough relevance to become standard school reading...and so it should stay. Sad how little is leaned.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 10, 2020, 03:40:40 PM
There is a lot of PC around. A bugbear of mine how much of it there is to be found in Netflix series. Once you have seen it you cannot unsee it.

The beauty of Netflix is that they can provide content for a much broader audience. I'm a straight white guy, there's tons of content out there that ostensibly caters to me, personally I'm glad to see more diverse media properties making it to market. If it's not for you, don't watch it, nobody's taking away what you do like so long as there's an audience for it.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Music_Lover on January 10, 2020, 07:43:24 PM

In short, if you need to consult the Political Correctness Manual to teach you respect for, understanding of, and kindness to others, don't bother.

You'll be wasting your time.

I do not call it "Political Correctness". I call it respect and understanding, what's the problem with being considerate?
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: goonchild on January 11, 2020, 12:13:50 AM
Goon, if that boolean inversion is your sincere take on that argument then the cognitive dissonance you exhibit around side stepping the biggest lessons of the past 200 years in Gedankenwerk around societal change are not surprising. A moral standard "trying to do good" has seen the backside of enough people in the last century and a bit and it's apparent that expending effort in couching this any exact manner for you is a waste.

Most human endeavour is to be taken as someone acting in good faith. However the "moral" stance these days is less frequently tied to people's actions. It's too often degenerated to little more than a virtue signal aligned to some zeitgeist/moving goal of some societal influence, whatever one may fix one's gaze onto ... and that is quite fickle in this fast advancing age with accepted standard of behaviour today may loose you your job next year. Cui bono?

The authoritarian aspect of it: if a simple working guy has to fear for his job for a single uncautious mistake how far away is one from a Moscow show trial or a NSDAP rally or a struggle session?

The lessons of Lenin and co and what ideological nonsense fought it out in Weimar Germany and what followed gave Mr Orwell, Huxley enough relevance to become standard school reading...and so it should stay. Sad how little is leaned.

Timber, if that is what you derived from what I 'said', I despair of my ability to type clearly!

The term 'political correctness' is used too loosely to be useful. As a result, twitterative discussions of the subject (like the one in the present thread) tend muddify, which is why like JohnnyP I was not keen to dip my toe in. But there you go and here we are.

I think that keeping 'political correctness' closer to its historical roots, to refer to actual or attempted enforcement of political orthodoxy (of the kind that the ANC had in mind when it spoke of sending Julius Malema for political re-education, for example), allows us to be more precise and to communicate more clearly.

What the Jeremy Clarksons of the world (bless their ingenuous tell-it-'like'-it-is hearts) seem to refer to when they apoplectically ejaculate 'political correctness gone mad' is, I suggest, more accurately called social correctness. [Insert lengthy tract about anxious white men contemplating a world without them as alpha dog who have decided to 'take back' their gods-given place before they've lost it.]

None of this is to say that there are no problems. 'Safe spaces' at universities, for example, where students can hide from ideas that may offend them, are a ludicrous development in USAn universities. As was the (much more alarming, I think) demarcation during the reign of Bush II of minute areas of the USA as 'free-speech zones' to ensure that Bush II was not hurt by the wounding words of naughty citizens in desperate want of 'political correction'. 'Snowflakes', eh?

As for 'virtue signalling', to borrow from our USAn cousins, you'll find it across the political spectrum. What do you think politicians who profess undying love for 'family values' (Manson Family?) are doing? Or when they claim to be god-fearing folk? Or when they claim to be the 'most humble person' an interviewer has ever met? Or when they beg the question by claiming that they will make a thing 'great' 'again'?

In any event, if you disapprove of political correctness but also of its 'boolean inverse', would the correct conclusion be that you approve of some 'political correctness'? If it is, how much of it, when, about what, and, most importantly, why?
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: legro on January 11, 2020, 10:20:34 AM
In any event, if you disapprove of political correctness but also of its 'boolean inverse', would the correct conclusion be that you approve of some 'political correctness'? If it is, how much of it, when, about what, and, most importantly, why?

Why either-or, for-against?

Recent ominous signs notwithstanding, The Truth may well be out there. Until such time as this is shown to be a naive and idealistic pipe dream, shall we assume it exists and not massage it in an attempt to create a warm and fuzzy lie of benevolent global brother-and sisterhood.

I do not call it "Political Correctness". I call it respect and understanding, what's the problem with being considerate?

Exactly and agree.

Centralised moral prescription doesn't even work in religion.

" If you have nothing good to say, rather say nothing." Simplistic, but if you absolutely have to be PC. ;D
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: ingenieus on January 11, 2020, 03:51:48 PM
The beauty of Netflix is that they can provide content for a much broader audience. I'm a straight white guy, there's tons of content out there that ostensibly caters to me, personally I'm glad to see more diverse media properties making it to market. If it's not for you, don't watch it, nobody's taking away what you do like so long as there's an audience for it.

I'm not talking about "Orange is the new black."

There are many subtle PC things in content for said much broader audience.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: legro on January 11, 2020, 04:25:44 PM
^ You are obviously paying attention.

Must say that political correctness hardly ever offends me, I just often find it false and misleading. I guess the fact that one is not anymore offended by false and misleading statements is just the " way of the world ".

Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 11, 2020, 05:04:43 PM
I'm not talking about "Orange is the new black."

There are many subtle PC things in content for said much broader audience.

Perhaps the values of the broader audience are simply not as in line with your own as you might suppose? Could you give examples?
Title: Political Correctness
Post by: Jason Willemse on January 11, 2020, 05:31:29 PM
The longer this thread continues, the more I wonder what the f$!k Iím doing here.

Thought this was an audio thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: ingenieus on January 12, 2020, 12:10:32 AM
Perhaps the values of the broader audience are simply not as in line with your own as you might suppose? Could you give examples?

Here is a lengthy discussion on one of the PC tropes of modern entertainment.

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/dear-feminist-hollywood-stop-trying-to-make-female-superheroes-a-thing/
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 12, 2020, 07:54:52 AM
Here is a lengthy discussion on one of the PC tropes of modern entertainment.

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/dear-feminist-hollywood-stop-trying-to-make-female-superheroes-a-thing/

I don't like Crowder, he is not a pleasant person and I see no problem with female superheroes. If you're going to argue that it's forced and the movies are crap, are superhero movies with females held to a higher standard than male superhero flicks? Most of the recent DC superhero movies were poor, but I liked Wonder Woman.

More diverse representation in media is a good thing, comics themselves are plenty diverse and have been for a very long time, now that superheroes have taken over popular media, why not bring that diversity to the cinema? You think movie studios are releasing these movies because the have an agenda - you're right, it's making a profit.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Coenoes on January 12, 2020, 08:33:19 AM
Crowder?
This is the only Crowder I listen to.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200112/40694b8ebcdf12df47b1674640d480af.jpg)

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 12, 2020, 09:55:57 AM
Crowder?

I wasn't aware of him either until he achieved some internet notoriety for his ongoing racist and homophobic bullying of a member of the Vox team.

It's interesting that the people that complain about "political correctness" are the ones calling for certain things to be shut down. Seeing the providing of a broader range of content in an era where we have more content than ever before as somehow marginalising them. The lack of self-awareness is astonishing.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: chrisc on January 12, 2020, 11:56:14 AM
The longer this thread continues, the more I wonder what the f$!k Iím doing here.

Thought this was an audio thing.


Yes, it is primarily an audio forum.  But we do discuss other things besides.   If you look on MyBroadband, perhaps the most widely used forum in South Africa, they have a large section that deals with non-computing subjects
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: JonnyP on January 12, 2020, 08:41:05 PM
I don't like Crowder, he is not a pleasant person and I see no problem with female superheroes. If you're going to argue that it's forced and the movies are crap, are superhero movies with females held to a higher standard than male superhero flicks? Most of the recent DC superhero movies were poor, but I liked Wonder Woman.

More diverse representation in media is a good thing, comics themselves are plenty diverse and have been for a very long time, now that superheroes have taken over popular media, why not bring that diversity to the cinema? You think movie studios are releasing these movies because the have an agenda - you're right, it's making a profit.

Wonder Woman was the best DC movie to date
Black Panther was pretty darn good
Avengers improved by including Black Panther and Valkyrie (I really would love a stand alone Valkyrie movie)

In the MCU the films have all been good though (except Iron Man 3 and Thor:Dark World)

Too many you tubers who think that living in their momís basement is somebodyís fault rather than them being useless.  Then they whine and rail against ĎPCí
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: legro on January 12, 2020, 09:13:52 PM
ChloŽ Grace Moritz in Kick-Ass probably the greatest female anti superhero thus far.

Are we ever gonna move to stuff being either good or bad - no race, sex, ethnic group, religion etc etc etc being brought in as a qualifier?

Even if " the wise men/ women " tell us it should be?

Can it really be so difficult?
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Stanp on January 14, 2020, 05:02:28 AM
On political correctness: I see myself as moderate. We have gone from Nazism to Antifa. Both the far left and far right are not good. Free speech has to exist in a healthy democracy. People should not be stopped from voicing their opinion.

Liberals have become too extreme. They advocate bringing children up gender neutral; I find this absurd. It has come about because in the past gays were persecuted. Gays should not be persecuted nor should there be a need for gay pride parades. It should be left to be. A persons sexuality is no one else's business.

Some believe Nationalism equals Nazism which is ridiculous. Universities push liberal Globalist ideology, so does Hollywood, Google, FB and Youtube. 

On climate change: It is scientifically proven and it is also logical that what we are doing to our planet is destructive. Over population is a problem. More people means more factories to produce more goods. There is a need for more food. Fresh water is becoming a problem. The biggest problems are caused by industrial, automotive and power station emissions.

Air pollution causes a green house effect. The Artic ice is melting due to this. Rivers are polluted. Soil erosion due to deforestation. If we persist we will cause irreversible damage. And yes, I think future generations will curse us.

Hopefully nuclear fusion will be able to become a reality and stop the destruction to our planet. We can't go anywhere else ; this is our only home.

Regarding "vegan nuts", you are mistaken. Vegans are generally very compassionate people. We are at the top of the food chain not from being nice, but by being vicious beasts. Animals are powerless, have no voice.  Vegans stand up for them. Do you think about where that nicely packaged meat comes from? From animals imprisoned only to be slaughtered. Ever seen the inside of a slaughter house? Do you think that a factory farm is kind? Do you think animals are automatons? Have no feelings? Don't understand the world around them? Puppy mills. Horse racing. Bull fighting. Factory farms; All disgusting. Animals have served us so well, yet we treat them so poorly
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Trompie67 on January 14, 2020, 05:38:14 AM
On political correctness: I see myself as moderate. We have gone from Nazism to Antifa. Both the far left and far right are not good. Free speech has to exist in a healthy democracy. People should not be stopped from voicing their opinion.

Liberals have become too extreme. They advocate bringing children up gender neutral; I find this absurd. It has come about because in the past gays were persecuted. Gays should not be persecuted nor should there be a need for gay pride parades. It should be left to be. A persons sexuality is no one else's business.

Some believe Nationalism equals Nazism which is ridiculous. Universities push liberal Globalist ideology, so does Hollywood, Google, FB and Youtube. 


On climate change: It is scientifically proven and it is also logical that what we are doing to our planet is destructive. Over population is a problem. More people means more factories to produce more goods. There is a need for more food. Fresh water is becoming a problem. The biggest problems are caused by industrial, automotive and power station emissions.

Air pollution causes a green house effect. The Artic ice is melting due to this. Rivers are polluted. Soil erosion due to deforestation. If we persist we will cause irreversible damage. And yes, I think future generations will curse us.

Hopefully nuclear fusion will be able to become a reality and stop the destruction to our planet. We can't go anywhere else ; this is our only home.

Regarding "vegan nuts", you are mistaken. Vegans are generally very compassionate people. We are at the top of the food chain not from being nice, but by being vicious beasts. Animals are powerless, have no voice.  Vegans stand up for them. Do you think about where that nicely packaged meat comes from? From animals imprisoned only to be slaughtered. Ever seen the inside of a slaughter house? Do you think that a factory farm is kind? Do you think animals are automatons? Have no feelings? Don't understand the world around them? Puppy mills. Horse racing. Bull fighting. Factory farms; All disgusting. Animals have served us so well, yet we treat them so poorly

The bit in italics made rational, logical sense. Then you negated the "I see myself as a moderate" statement completely!  :ROFLMAO:
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Stanp on January 14, 2020, 06:34:20 AM
@ Okay Trompie. How so?

I am sick and tired of liberal globalists pushing guilt onto whites. They portray whites as the worst people ever to have walked on this Earth for colonialism and the slave trade. What about some balance. Whites did what any other advanced civilization would have done. No people are innocent of atrocities. The Khan of Mongolia decimated the European people. The North Africans invaded Spain. The Muslims took white slaves and sold black people to Europeans as slaves. The Ottomans invaded Europe. The Japanese killed millions of Chinese people during the second world war.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: chrisc on January 14, 2020, 08:24:34 AM
My mother was a vegan.  She was born in England over 100 years ago.  Her mother was big in the suffragette movement and brought up her daughters to think for themselves and be independant

She did not insist on me following her nutritional ideas and would happily let me eat chicken but no red meat, apart from bacon

Being a vegan seemed to serve her well.  When she died at 103, she had all her teeth, no notable illnesses, never been in hospital (I was born at home).
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 14, 2020, 09:01:16 AM
Liberals have become too extreme. They advocate bringing children up gender neutral; I find this absurd.

Of course some people take this to the extreme, but I'm all for not telling your kids this is a boy colour, that's a girl colour, this is a man's job, those are girls toys etc. Let kids like what they like and don't force your antiquated notions on them. I was surprised to find that a good portion of the younger parent in my family are raising their kids in this way.

It has come about because in the past gays were persecuted. Gays should not be persecuted nor should there be a need for gay pride parades. It should be left to be.

That would be a pity, it's a good party.

I am sick and tired of liberal globalists pushing guilt onto whites. They portray whites as the worst people ever to have walked on this Earth for colonialism and the slave trade. What about some balance. Whites did what any other advanced civilization would have done. No people are innocent of atrocities. The Khan of Mongolia decimated the European people. The North Africans invaded Spain. The Muslims took white slaves and sold black people to Europeans as slaves. The Ottomans invaded Europe. The Japanese killed millions of Chinese people during the second world war.

Similar to the Pride Parade, why do you care? Most of it's not untrue, and most every ethnicity is saddled with some uncomfortable historical past. Far more bothersome to me is our more recent history and the guilt I still feel for my ignorance during the Apartheid days - the experiences and callous things I'd said. I was a child of course so I understand it wasn't really my fault, but I still feel the guilt. I think it's healthy to stay mindful of these things, I think it's important for people to have an understanding of themselves through various lenses.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Trompie67 on January 14, 2020, 09:45:31 AM
@ Okay Trompie. How so?

I am sick and tired of liberal globalists pushing guilt onto whites. They portray whites as the worst people ever to have walked on this Earth for colonialism and the slave trade. What about some balance. Whites did what any other advanced civilization would have done. No people are innocent of atrocities. The Khan of Mongolia decimated the European people. The North Africans invaded Spain. The Muslims took white slaves and sold black people to Europeans as slaves. The Ottomans invaded Europe. The Japanese killed millions of Chinese people during the second world war.

Your vegan rant negated the "moderate".

With regards you statement above: To me it is very simple - you get conquerors & the conquered. The thin veil of "civilisation" that prevents some carnage is just that - a thin veil. As time passes the horrors of war will recede - humans do not learn from history, they forget.
The Silent Generation are mostly dead or on their last legs. Boomers & GenX can still recall from stories they've been told & in many cases personal experience of other conflicts.
Already in ZA there are two entire generation that have zero clue about conscription & thus no shitty memories to recall or relate to. In addition the entire border war saga is a swear word, so very few stories from the time are related to the new generations.

There will be another large scale conflict, and many humans shall perish. This shall go some way to restore Earth's natural balance between sustainability & being over exploited.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Stanp on January 14, 2020, 02:46:04 PM
@ Ken, I agree that it's not good to force gender roles on kids, just as it's not good to bring them up gender neutral. If your little boy plays with his sister's dolls, let him be.

Yes, our previous government were not nice, nor fair. They were fascist. I never supported them. They allowed whites little freedom too. We were told what we could watch, what we could and could not do. Who we were allowed to be with. Where we were allowed to go.  And yes, they were terrible to black people. I woke up to just how terrible they treated non whites when I was about 17 years old. I was scared to openly oppose them because if I did, I would have been sent to prison. So I say good riddance to them.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Stanp on January 14, 2020, 03:02:26 PM
@ Chrisc. That's great Chris. Vegans are generally extremely healthy. I became vegan when I was 45, kept it up for 7 years. I was slim and very healthy. For various reasons I stopped.

I made friends with a vegan English lady on FB. She educated me regarding man's disgusting treatment of animals. I was ignorant and was horrified by what I learned. How animals are abused in the cosmetic industry, medical industry and in the farming industry.

While eating meat is not kind, it's more the way most animals are farmed and slaughtered that I oppose.

The wealthy west eats way too much meat. Not only does this cause animals to have to suffer, it is also a strain on the planet and if one doesn't care about this, it's extremely unhealthy.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Honda xr on January 23, 2020, 08:11:36 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-whats-warming-the-world/?fbclid=IwAR2xDWtwFetN4qcHXgK1hVHwVt7W9_cPULRDnpmlKl2v17OYdd_ysj3ysAY

I found this to be interesting reading and confirming my opinion that it is the uncontrolled population growth that is the root cause for climate change, but it is not discussed by the powers that be due to their irrational political correctness and sensitivity to upset people. Political correctness propagates lies, it promotes mediocrity and it does not reflect the real world.

I have been watching the changes forced down the throats of viewers by Hollywood producers and came up with an idea for an ideal Hollywood actor that will be 100% political correct: a transgender female black vegan dwarf will tick all the boxes for roles in major films and TV series.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: KenMasters on January 23, 2020, 08:58:58 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-whats-warming-the-world/?fbclid=IwAR2xDWtwFetN4qcHXgK1hVHwVt7W9_cPULRDnpmlKl2v17OYdd_ysj3ysAY

I found this to be interesting reading and confirming my opinion that it is the uncontrolled population growth that is the root cause for climate change, but it is not discussed by the powers that be due to their irrational political correctness and sensitivity to upset people. Political correctness propagates lies, it promotes mediocrity and it does not reflect the real world.

I have been watching the changes forced down the throats of viewers by Hollywood producers and came up with an idea for an ideal Hollywood actor that will be 100% political correct: a transgender female black vegan dwarf will tick all the boxes for roles in major films and TV series.

How on earth do you reach that conclusion from the article you posted? It says nothing about population and puts the blame squarely on CO2 levels. You are the one propagating lies here.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Shonver on January 23, 2020, 09:10:20 AM
The bit in italics made rational, logical sense. Then you negated the "I see myself as a moderate" statement completely!  :ROFLMAO:

There's a test for that! You can get a certificate for it, too.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test (https://www.politicalcompass.org/test)
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Shonver on January 23, 2020, 09:26:11 AM
Of course some people take this to the extreme, but I'm all for not telling your kids this is a boy colour, that's a girl colour, this is a man's job, those are girls toys etc. Let kids like what they like and don't force your antiquated notions on them. I was surprised to find that a good portion of the younger parent in my family are raising their kids in this way.

It's what we've done and I, too, was surprised to find that many of my own extended family and friends do the same. Here where we now live in the northern suburbs of Cape Town (I'm a native of The Flats) I was dismayed to find that the community is very conservative. I recall an incident when my older son was at primary school. His friend was crying for some or other reason, so he went over to give him a consoling hug. My boy was not prepared for the repulsiveness with which his gesture was rejected. The friend's reaction shouted: "WTF, dude?? I'm not gay!!". A lot of the stuff they teach in schools here also belongs in another time and place (not the curriculum, but the teachers' own world views).
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Trompie67 on January 23, 2020, 09:32:47 AM
There's a test for that! You can get a certificate for it, too.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test (https://www.politicalcompass.org/test)

 :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: It would seem then that I am a slightly collective anarchist!  :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Shonver on January 23, 2020, 10:08:10 AM
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: It would seem then that I am a slightly collective anarchist!  :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Yooo! Collective Activist! I can't even.  :thinking:
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: vleisman on January 23, 2020, 10:31:03 AM
There's a test for that! You can get a certificate for it, too.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test (https://www.politicalcompass.org/test)

I appear to be a well balanced Libertarian. That sounds acceptable to me. Boring, but acceptable.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Shonver on January 23, 2020, 10:57:49 AM
I'm dead centre of the left/libertarian scale.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: JonnyP on January 23, 2020, 04:26:41 PM
Well perhaps unsurprisingly, I'm a far left extreme Libertarian.  Managed to get further to the Left than Stalin and more Libertarian than Gandhi.  Actually pretty much a collectivist anarchist.........so I guess all possession is theft, but hey, do what you like as long as it doesn't hurt others.  Now let's make some lentil and mung bean stew and roll a fat one up in a squat commune smelling of patchouli and body odour.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Katji on January 23, 2020, 05:31:43 PM
:) hehheh  I can't do the category thing, self-identity category thing,...although I do understand how pol.sci. categories are important for communicating. 
"I reserve the right" to change my opinion every week. 

(Refer to the topic of "PC", this is another digression which is not quite relevant.  And "PC" is not about the content, it's about the concept.)

wrt to pol.sci. categories, I'm more concerned with what is good for South Africa.  (wrt that, I have a bombshell to drop that I've been saving up.  Clue: ref. the name of the finance minister.)  :)   But ja, not according to any specific dogma whatever.  Realism and pragmatism.  Acknowledge the realities, analyse and plan, *and* implement.  (Face the realities and implement are both problems in SA.)

hahhah Anarchism...of course.  My heart and soul....  :giggle:  but I eventually realised.  There are 2 major flaws, somewhat fatal flaws. 1, human nature and (including that most people 95%+ are not interested in participating in meetings - and if you've ever had much to do with Body Corporates or whatever, you'll understand that)...
...and 2, peoples militias are ultimately not good enough for protection, defence.

Anyway, anarchism is a vague concept, you need to decide on a subgenre, at least either anarcho-syndicalist or anarchist-communist.

Libertarian...it's a joke, unrealistic, impractical, totally ignores the situation of the masses.  Is often a cover for rapacious "shock therapy" and so on.

Now, imo, I think social democracy like Europe now is probably as good as it gets.  But you have to get there.

Pic/s to follow...with personal history, illustration re anarchists/Lefties, and with ref. to smelly BO.  LOL

PS: Couple years ago, association with SA anarchist-communist group on Fb,...an illustration...of something...a little group of related people started a little peoples education / pol. education, in some township area in Gauteng... ANC thugs / maybe ANCYL members, assaulted them, one hospitalised iirc.  They said...so to speak: ANC rules /only.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: JonnyP on January 23, 2020, 06:24:21 PM
Yep, it is only a funky little red/blue quiz.  Ultimately, it measures ideals rather than realities.  Iím far more on the side of pragmatism.  Would be interesting to know how our EFF student command and SASCO comrades score on such a scale as to a great extent pragmatism has never had a place in student politics (including my student days in the UK).  The protests have already started this year (before orientation even) and from what Iíve heard are probably justified (NB this is my personal view)
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Katji on January 23, 2020, 07:28:31 PM
eish, justified is a mixed bag too.  Yes indeed, pragmatism and student politics.  All that too - most - can be traced to ANC failure. Most notably education, as a whole. 
I didn't do the quiz thing. (Not practical anyway - just in from about 1 hour at supermarket, and 276Mb mp3 still downloading, currently at 13 Kbs.  iow it's taking about 3 hours.  But at least SB worked,smoothly, I needed to pay water bill.)
Yes, ideals, sure... hehheh, as in anarchism.  ...Even religions are more helpful - but then again, that is a good point of Communism, no more pastors...deprecate customary circumcision too,...govt. intervention here is typically half-baked/feeble/corrupt.)
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: legro on January 23, 2020, 10:40:17 PM
There's a test for that! You can get a certificate for it, too.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test (https://www.politicalcompass.org/test)


Thanks for this, Shonver.

Weirdly, I'm a left libertarian ( more left than libertarian).

This even though I'm very much pro death penalty and firmly believe that some criminals cannot be rehabilitated ( the two, logically, go hand in hand ).

Anyway, fun.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Shonver on January 23, 2020, 10:58:27 PM
This even though I'm very much pro death penalty and firmly believe that some criminals cannot be rehabilitated ( the two, logically, go hand in hand ).

This is a tricky one. In this regard I find myself to be more of a pragmatist than an idealist.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: legro on January 23, 2020, 11:19:40 PM
This is a tricky one. In this regard I find myself to be more of a pragmatist than an idealist.


Our homegrown perps of violent crime have shown themselves to be pragmatists to the core - forceful acquisition ( practice ) being the shortcut to conspicuous consumption (ideal ).

It would be kinder to our society if the law would deal with them in similar fashion.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Katji on January 23, 2020, 11:21:25 PM
I jumped to the conclusion that means yes, death penalty.  [@ Shonver]

+1. 
If incontrovertible evidence.  (Assuming no corruption.)
Murder.  Attempted murder if Grievous Bodily Harm.  Driving Under Influence resulting in death or GBH.  ...That's all, i think.
It doesn't have to be tricky like USA.  Not dragged out for years and no theatrical performances of protestors+media.

Corruption, etc.  Serious cases = Long sentences hard labour.
[idealism] I said in 1995, ANC, knowing there was a problem with cadre deployment and...so on, should have immediately started a programme on SABC and so on, teaching that it is a very serious crime against the people, stealing the peoples money.

PS:  Driving Under Influence resulting in death or GBH.  ...Perennial campaigns against drunk driving, always talking about the deaths, never mentioning the implications wrt paraplegics and amputated limbs and permanently debilitating organ damage and so on.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Shonver on January 24, 2020, 12:05:59 AM
I jumped to the conclusion that means yes, death penalty.  [@ Shonver]

It's not a simple matter. I don't think in terms of an eye for an eye. There are many instances where the perpetrators of crime merely exist on the fringes of normal society, not having a chance to fully integrate or discover their own worth, let alone appreciate the value of another's life. The people we easily think of as savages and low-lifes. Such are likely victims of circumstance; their value systems far removed from that of mainstream society. Should such a person be killed because they killed? Should they be given the opportunity to develop? Acquire correct self-awareness, social awareness and social skills? A broken correctional system, ostensibly there to rehabilitate, fails them and us and results in them repeating their ways. So now we become emotional and call for the death penalty. Because, logically, if they had been killed that would be the end of that. I'm sorry, the problem is too complex to have such a simple solution. And the root cause is not addressed. The concept of the death penalty as a deterrent only works for mainstream society, not to people who don't value their own lives.

However, I think that the most serious crimes such as treason, war crimes, human trafficking, genocide and war-mongering, etc., should at least be considered candidates for capital punishment.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Katji on January 24, 2020, 02:22:08 AM
Genocide and war crimes, but it must be clear.  War crimes, sure, if the usual rules of evidence are applied.
War-mongering is way too problematic, hard to define...for e.g., various players contribute to that scenario, whether wilfully or foolishly.
War, the context of war, is a difficult one, when one person or a few individuals are held responsible.  When it is individuals on the ground, who actually commit acts like mutilating corpses, dismembering bodies and so on,...well, there are "ordinary" instances of that in SA quite often.
In all of it, "where to draw the line" seems to be the difficult thing.

Treason, forget it - you know why - it is a definition problem.  SA being a prize example.  We would have quite a long list of big-name martyrs if the famous treason trial had led to executions instead of to prison.
Human trafficking, the definition has been broadened, so it extends to more than taking people as slaves.  People trick females into situations where they take them to other countries for sex work,...familiar stories.  They are probably better candidates for rehabilitation than so many killers, at least with long sentences.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Jozua_2019 on January 24, 2020, 07:28:37 AM
My understanding is that death sentences should be avoided at all cost- not for being politically correct but to reduce the destructive impact on the soul.

Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Trompie67 on January 24, 2020, 08:26:25 AM
My understanding is that death sentences should be avoided at all cost- not for being politically correct but to reduce the destructive impact on the soul.

Your understanding does not take into account the destructive impact upon the soul of the murdered person, nor their family & friends though?

I firmly believe in retributive justice. You intentionally plan & commit murder, or do so whilst committing another crime, you should pay with your life.

As Immanuel Kant argued: punishment is a matter of justice, justice which must be carried out by the state for the sake of the law, never for the sake of the criminal or that of the victim. If the guilty aren't punished justice isn't done, and when justice isn't done, then the very idea of law itself is undermined.

Simplistic? Absolutely. Solutionist? Absolutely.

My tax money funding someone convicted of murder for "life" (actually only 25 years in lovely SA, & they then are released back into society & the majority repeat offend anyway).

No thanks, I'd far rather my tax money went to fund (for example) higher education. In 2015 (the last available stats) it cost R350 a day to keep a scumbag incarcerated. That is the same as paying fees in 2019 for two students studying first year BSc. To hell with the murderer who only takes & never contributes.

I am aware of the often stated "death penalty does not deter crime" however there are such a great number of variables that it is next to impossible to obtain any credible information - and any study is easily skewed to already held beliefs.


https://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000983
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Crankshaft on January 24, 2020, 08:42:00 AM
The best way to permanently remove a person from society.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Jozua_2019 on January 24, 2020, 09:44:34 AM
Trompie67

I think I understand from where you coming from ? Some of my own family members have been murdered and the natural instinct is to demand max retribution.  To make matters worse , the killer was released without any consultation with the family. 

Where I do do differ from you is that your position is based on belief - which I suspect is based on other's unproven assumptions.  A learned man's (Kant) book knowledge can easily be trumped by practical experience. 

Based on other practicalities, I rather see the person suffer in jail than to cause more havoc elsewhere.

Jozua

Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Trompie67 on January 24, 2020, 11:05:38 AM
Trompie67

I think I understand from where you coming from ? Some of my own family members have been murdered and the natural instinct is to demand max retribution.  To make matters worse , the killer was released without any consultation with the family. 

Where I do do differ from you is that your position is based on belief - which I suspect is based on other's unproven assumptions.  A learned man's (Kant) book knowledge can easily be trumped by practical experience. 

Based on other practicalities, I rather see the person suffer in jail than to cause more havoc elsewhere.

Jozua

Jozua - I am truly sorry you & your family had to first endure the crime & then the callous treatment from government. Inexcusable on both counts.

You mention belief - certainly not religious belief, and I do not think from assumptions made by others either.

Fact: 50% to 70% of SA criminals that are released (even on parole) re-offend within 3 years. Those are the ones that are caught when re-offending.
Fact: max prison term (murder being the longest) is 25 years, however many are realeased when the shortest term is served - so if the crim rapes (15 years) & then murders his victim (25 years) he will be out and about after 15 years max.
Fact: R350 a day per inmate = R127k a year (last stats are for 2015).
Fact: 1st year BSc at UCT is R63k (2019).

Of great importance too is the role retributive justice plays in maintaining order in society. It is supposed to help deter folk from mob justice & vigilantism. It is also of vital importance in ensuring that the "Average Joe" obeys the law as a preference & as a duty to society at large, rather than choosing to ignore and/or disobey the law because they see so many others doing so & not being punished for it.

The impact of a lack of punishment is plainly visible on our roads every single day - it started with minibus taxis disobeying the rules of the road & now it is so common among all drivers that nobody even blinks an eye anymore, and nobody gets punished either.

In the late 90's we had a staff member stab another. He was arrested on a charge of attempted murder. Released on bail of R50-00 the following Monday. Injured staff member returned to the stable yard (his place of residence & work) 2 weeks later. The very same day I brought him back from hospital the chap on bail pitched up. This time with a firearm, to do the job properly. He was successful. He then decided I would be his next target, as we'd fired him when he initially returned after being released on bail. He was unsuccessful. Practical experience is very unpleasant. He should never have been released on bail & I should never have had to do the states job for them - which they were not doing since 1990 in any case.

There is a reason I hold many of the older & established bike clubs in high regard. They have a very clear code of conduct & all involved know without any doubt what may and may not be said or done. Respect is key to everything. If the code is breached it is dealt with swiftly, if not immediately. Clear hierarchy, both within the club & within the region & ultimately the country. There is never any doubt nor grey areas. You f*ck up & retribution is swift & harsh. Which is exactly how I believe it should be everywhere, all the time.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Shonver on January 24, 2020, 11:22:22 AM
There is a reason I hold many of the older & established bike clubs in high regard. They have a very clear code of conduct & all involved know without any doubt what may and may not be said or done. Respect is key to everything. If the code is breached it is dealt with swiftly, if not immediately. Clear hierarchy, both within the club & within the region & ultimately the country. There is never any doubt nor grey areas. You f*ck up & retribution is swift & harsh. Which is exactly how I believe it should be everywhere, all the time.

My take-away from this is that a system works as designed. Whatever system it may be. It is when the system is not properly implemented (or enforced), maintained and improved - as required - that things go awry.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: Katji on January 24, 2020, 03:17:29 PM
In the late 90's we had a staff member stab another. He was arrested on a charge of attempted murder. Released on bail of R50-00 the following Monday. Injured staff member returned to the stable yard (his place of residence & work) 2 weeks later. The very same day I brought him back from hospital the chap on bail pitched up. This time with a firearm, to do the job properly. He was successful. He then decided I would be his next target, as [...]

Exactly.  [If you watch SABC] you see it quite often, ordinary people of the community telling the story. Basically same story each time.  "We took him to the police station, then..."  One I saw recently, the person (a community leader,)  said the police told him that [as per rules] they had to release [and so on.] But he asks, "What must we do, what can we do?"
The natural result, you know.  Old principle.  Because necessary for any civilisation.

And someone recently said, somewhere here, isn't law and order one of the basic or fundamental purposes of govt.?  No, it is the one most fundamental purpose.
It is the main reason why we [as humans] submitted to kings and so on, to paying tax to pay for it.
The primary responsibility of the government is to maintain law and order so that the ordinary people can carry on with their agriculture and trading.

>> "It is the main reason why we [as humans] submitted to kings and so on, to paying tax to pay for it."
That then extends to maintaining a defence force, men and weapons, to protect the community from robbery [etc] of neighbouring peoples.

It is not a matter of death penalty or not, it is a matter of deterrence, of protection.

The first part of the justice system is the police, the policing function.  That is half the problem in SA, at least.  Across the board.  From theft through to corrupt actvitities of local civil service people.
The problem is so extensive, so pervasive. it seems that there is a problem with "not being able to see the wood for the trees."
Keyword "impunity".  Failure of justice system, beginning with the police.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: legro on January 24, 2020, 11:02:59 PM
Sorry to have steered this from PC to the death penalty - two of my bugbears. ;D

I'll bow out with this: belief in " Divine Retribution " as a soothing balm is, finally, a cop out.

Just as the belief that a higher power will provide for hunger, poverty, inequality, injustice to man and beast etc etc.

In all of the cases above we need to get off our backsides and do something.

We are putting too much on the Big Guy.

" Thoughts and prayers " if that's your thing, will not help for the poor and downtrodden.

It will also not help for the murderous.
Title: Re: Political Correctness
Post by: kenvanraas on January 24, 2020, 11:30:43 PM
^^^ Its about/among earthlings this one  :dop: