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Audio and Video Talk => General Discussion => South African AV Product Board => Topic started by: Air on July 19, 2021, 04:51:57 PM

Title: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Air on July 19, 2021, 04:51:57 PM
Yesterday as a fulfilment of a promise made to Rudi before he left our shores that I would listen to a Vanguard, a new unit was delivered to my doorstep. So stay tuned! I will listen to the amp over the next few weeks and share my impressions but I also would like to invite all who had the opportunity to listen to the amp to also share their views.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210719/5603563a0412494b630dfa0a7dc606b1.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210719/948b89ad334500e8c8172f09259cc8c4.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210719/e6581e84fc199223d8eedfa3ef3802e4.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Tonteldoos on July 19, 2021, 05:03:37 PM
Congratulations! Is it brand brand new? If so, some burn-in is in order.... let it play!
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Zilch on July 19, 2021, 07:11:28 PM
Awesomeeee!!!!!!
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Air on July 20, 2021, 12:04:06 PM
The Vanguard is brand new and was probably only used during the set-up and testing of the amp. So I will definitely let it run in the background for a while. I will also listen to the unit with different preamps in the chain so that I can get a good impression of the amp's personality.

Just as a start, I must say the fit and finish of the amp are very good.  I like the design. It is not overly embellished with detail, but the required hardware, like the heatsinks, is used in an interesting and novel way without obviously “trying” too hard. I think that is what style is all about. I think it would not look out of place next to some of the established international brands, especially from the Scandinavian countries, such as the recent designs from Copland.

I installed the unit, switched it on, and it has been running without a glitch, and I might add very quiet since Sunday. It seems as if the Vanguard design has been well thought through by Rudi and that with Heinrich’s hand in the production process, what we have here is a viable, marketable product. Rudi has been very successful over the years with his designs and is one of the main contributors to the forum, but the Vanguard is clearly in a different league than what he has done in the past. Not that his previous designs were not good; to the contrary, they are excellent and well-loved by many, but the Vanguard is a mature product ready for the market.
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Air on July 20, 2021, 04:51:12 PM
Before I share my first impressions, all-important first impressions, I just want to put a few stakes in the ground regarding my biases.  Some of these views and preferences you might already know if you have read my contributions and others not so known and perhaps implied but never stated explicitly.  Firstly I see no need for a pre-power combination in most circumstances, and I also don’t see the need for an amp of more than 100W maximum. If you do require such kinds of amps, in my view, you have the wrong kind of speakers. It is a personal bias; I accept it. I also understand that it is a controversial standpoint.  Many enthusiasts are crazy about the high powered amps, about pre and power combos and even using multiple amps to bi-amp or even run different sections of the speaker system altogether.

I also want to say upfront that I really see no value in a hyperbolic approach to share impressions about a product. Statements like “the best ever, it tranced so and so, or there is no comparison at all” just don’t do it for me. It helps me zero to understand a product and what it sounds like. I need to have a nuanced understanding, give me the context, personal preferences, share differences and similarities, virtues and sins and ultimately why you like the product and why not. Also, I believe price correlates with quality, but it is not a perfect correlation by all means. On an international forum, someone the other day asked about a Pathos product. Someone else answered that this particular guy must listen to an amplifier four times the price of the Logos amplifier in question. I think that is just poor judgement, social and otherwise. So I tried to understand products within price brackets at least.

Lastly, I have specific preferences for the kind of sound that I enjoy. I value midrange palatability and naturalness, rich textures, a balance between leading edges and decays, a coherent sound rather than a highly analytical sound. I am pretty willing to give up something in the frequency extremes to get more of what makes me happy. Suppleness in the expression of dynamic contrasts, macro-dynamics, but especially micro shifts is crucial to me.

The Vanguard is therefore not the typical amp that I would pay attention to, considering some of my departure points. Still, I have given Rudi my word that I will listen to it and listen to it and will listen with an open mind. 

I can say with confidence that my initial impressions of the sound of the Vanguard are very positive. The mere fact that I have been listening to the amp since Sunday, although mostly in the background as I work, is a good start. I know myself by now and I know how I relate and respond to different components.  Although I often have a number of components around, I sometimes very quickly decide I just frankly can't listen to the component at all. I won’t name and shame but some of you might know about the integrated amp, a well-known name, but for the life of me I could not listen to it for more than a few hours, maybe maximum for a day. With such components, I get quickly restless and start to think about taking a component out if I don’t like the sound. On the other hand, there are components that I always feel happy to have back in the chain I look forward to installing them and can’t wait to do so. It is an emotional response but very indicative for me.

The amp sounds balanced with no obvious abbreviations in the sound, not overly warm or clinical, there is no sense that it is all about power and no finesse and although I think the level of detail is very good, but it also don’t strike me as an amp that constantly will remind you of “look how can I be like an X-ray, or microscope and zoom in on detail while losing the essence of the music. With crescendos, the amp stays in control and even taxing recordings are listenable. Maybe some negatives in my book at this stage; it sounds like a SS amp and is less sweet than what I prefer. It is certainly not clinical but I will never mistake it for a class A SS amp even. I also prefer a more supple bass approach rather than an amp with an iron fist control in the bass lines. The Vanguard is voiced on the edge in this regard. As for the all-important midrange I think it is good at least for a SS amp of this nature.

I know many of you would ask but what pre are you using in the chain and what speakers etc as you are a proponent of the of the idea of synergy, but as this should be read as initial impressions I would rather not introduce those variables right now. Just take it as first impressions and I will make an effort to change the pre, and other variables over the next few weeks. I have already had offers for a pre that many of you would be interested in to hear how it works with the Vanguard. What perhaps could be of interest now is to say that I have used an integrated as pre-amp and that this has given me some sort of baseline to easily compare the Vanguard to that of the build-in power stage of the integrated(excluding the effect of the interconnect if you think IC do contribute to the final SQ).

I am in no rush, even more so give the Covid circumstances to rush through the listening process, but I would be keen to hear your thoughts on my views so far, I do believe at least some of the forum members heard the Vanguard and a number of units were sold by Rudi before he left.
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: xumbug on July 21, 2021, 10:08:10 PM
Hi Stefan,

I liked the Vanguard a lot and promised Rudi I would do a review, but i only had the amp for two days and it was just to short a time to do proper analysis. There were a few very small issues that i asked Rudi to look at and one was the Amplifiers Gain. He did manage to increase the gain somewhat, but time was not on our side as he was leaving within a few days of completing the changes and my second session with the Vanguard was not to be. What i can remember about the Vanguard was the Midrange and upper frequency response was very nice.

Look forward to your final impressions ;)

   
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: udwadia on July 22, 2021, 09:35:08 PM
First impressions are important.  May I suggest you allow the amp 200 hours burn in and then post a serious review.   
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Achiroe on July 23, 2021, 09:01:21 AM
Thank you for your impressions thus far. I look forward to reading the rest.

Your close-up photographs are a tease. Please share more photos of the full amp and accompanying setup, over time, if you can.
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: GECO on July 24, 2021, 10:18:10 AM
The particular unit is the stock unit (800va) before i created the higher power unit with the 1,2kva power supplies (only two exist atm, one in South Africa and the other in Australia) but with the mods requested by @xumbug

The higher power unit did appear to be more airy and more revealing subtle nuances
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Air on July 24, 2021, 11:27:35 AM
As suggested I organized a VA pre-amp.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210724/36a5dcbf0e8674029cc45b4f038a2ee3.jpg)


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Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: GECO on July 24, 2021, 12:55:57 PM
The Ceracote finish on the VA is impeccable
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: naboo on July 24, 2021, 02:54:22 PM
I agree. Everything is just right.
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Schalk on July 25, 2021, 03:28:36 PM
The Ceracote finish on the VA is impeccable

Thanks Rudi, I sincerely hope it does justice to your stunning amp!
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Nirvana on July 25, 2021, 05:46:21 PM
Quite sure it will, Spyder - fantastic to see (and for Stefan to hear) this homegrown duo, ostensibly able to compete very well with almost anything that talks 'foreign'...  :2thumbs:
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: naughty on July 25, 2021, 09:18:04 PM
As suggested I organized a VA pre-amp. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210724/36a5dcbf0e8674029cc45b4f038a2ee3.jpg)


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that combination looks a treat  :thumbs: i'm sure it sounds great - waiting to hear your impressions on the combo
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: GECO on July 26, 2021, 02:39:30 AM
Just for clarification. The unit below the VA isn't the vanguard but a audio analogue integrated amp - AAcento of which Stefan is the distributor.
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: naughty on July 26, 2021, 03:12:24 AM
Just for clarification. The unit below the VA isn't the vanguard but a audio analogue integrated amp - AAcento of which Stefan is the distributor.

thanks for the clarification - and apologies for the confusion
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Air on July 26, 2021, 11:17:30 AM
For the past week, I have now listened almost exclusively to the Vanguard, and since Friday, I have also had the VA Black Widow preamp in the system. Over the weekend, I listened to music both in a focused manner and in the background whilst watching sport or a Netflix series. Informal listening is often essential to me as I think that when relaxing a bit more, one also gets a more holistic view of the SQ of a system. On Saturday, I chopped and changed some components (speakers, amps and preamps) to calibrate my impressions.

The sound of the Vanguard has been quite consistent over the time I have been listening to it and across different components in the systems. Over the week, I do think that it has improved in some respects, such as the smoothness in the top end. New out of the box, I thought it had a bit of grain and grit in the top end, but now I think it is smooth and clean. Especially with the VA pre the sound in the top end became nice and smooth. The VA is definitely a smooth sounding unit.

The outstanding quality that I can discern from the Geco Audio amp is the balance in the sound and that I feel it is always well in control. In terms of the balance, I find the tone spot on, and nothing stands out to distract from the sound. It doesn’t emphasise any part of the frequency spectrum. The bass is solid and deep, and I quite like it. It is not overblown neither is it emphasising leading edges at the cost of the decay of basslines. The midrange is good for a SS amp. I don’t feel that the mids are so focused that it almost pinched, so it does not allow voices to bloom to natural size, neither small nor overblown. As I mentioned earlier, I find the high frequencies smooth and well balanced against the rest of the frequency spectrum. In a way, this balance relates to the good overall impression of tone. Neither heavy and weighted down or lit up and light. Often the latter is used by designs to give an impression of detail (many speakers do this nasty trick, but it often leads to disappointment in the long-term).

If I look back to my initial impressions, they were a good indication of what the amp is all about. So how does it compare to other amplifiers I have experienced of late. Compared to Audio Analogue Maestro, I would say the Vanguard has a slightly better tone. Still, the power, impact and detail of the AA are better. Compared to the big Accuphase amps I listened to of late, the Vanguard is a bit faster. Still, the Accuphase units have a very dense and saturated sound that is harmonically richer. Especially the E480 has such a strong and powerful bass that it is almost unnerving if not match correctly. I also think that the Accuphase units are a bit richer and creamier in the highs. Compared to the kind of amps that I love, lower-powered SS amps(class A) and of course valve amps(both SETs and medium powered push-pull amps), all the high powered SS amps will outplay the lower output amps in terms of macro-dynamics, but the lower output amps and generally amps with simpler typologies are champs when it comes to the way they resolve more inner detail. Therefore they are more expressive in the midrange. The bigger SS amps are powerful, but with my listening preferences (choice of speakers and required volume), a Sugden A21 integrated resolves more nuances of the music across the frequency spectrum than any of the bigger amps. If one listens to mass stringed music and baroque music, the Sugden is just very, very good. However, things are never straightforward.  In an interesting comparison with a 20W class-A power amp that is a replica of a Bedini design plus VA pre the same trend was found. However, in this comparison, the Vanguard had a better tone even though the textural density was less. Despite the virtues of the Bedini replica, I would choose the Vanguard to listen to on a long-term basis as the sins of omissions (lack of textural density) is less worrying for me than the Bedini that is too light and lit up. ProAc speakers and SS amps generally don’t match well for example, but the Vanguard sound really nice, even one of the most demanding mini-monitors in the range.

In short, I think the Vanguard based on what I heard, and experienced hits the mark dead centred. It is balanced, powerful and even-handed. I think it will do well with even the most demanding speaker both in terms of its ability to drive a challenging load and make the best of most speakers unique voicing. The build quality is excellent and comparable to well-known brands, as I have mentioned in the beginning.

Rudi and Heinrich have done well, and the Vanguard is, in my opinion, a huge success. They can be proud of what they have achieved, and they have my admiration as the hurdles to do so in SA are many. It is easy to be an armchair critic or designer, and I will stay clear of giving any advice or input; suffice to remark that all we now need is a matching full-function preamplifier and, of course, an integrated!
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: GECO on July 26, 2021, 12:09:46 PM
Thank you for taking the time to listen to the amp. I really appreciate and value your feedback. I do miss not being able to shoot up the street and come visit and the other way round and the obligatory coffee of course
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Nirvana on July 26, 2021, 02:47:46 PM
Thanks Stefan!

Well, Kudo's to Rudi and Heinrich (and off course Schalk, with the established BW in the mix) - you guys have done yourselves a job to be proud on!
The main message I personally get from this summary, is one of 'balance', and to me, that is as important a trait as any of the others mentioned, when one of the other highly regarded amps were in the chain. Also, natural tonality is key - combined with balance, this will keep you listening and involved for long times.

Like Stefan infers, NO single amp will do all of these traits better than the rest, so it's up to us to decide what are the criteria that will give us as individuals the most satisfying listening experience, based on your taste and preferences. After all, I think what most of us want is to 'enjoy the music' and quality of the sound, without brandishing a magnifying glass!

So, imo, another excellent value proposition from our own shores, hopefully more exposure like this will get the 'good word' out there!
 :dop:
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: houqez on July 27, 2021, 09:25:15 PM
@Air do you mind sharing a few more pictures :drool: for us Newbie Youngsters?
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: GECO on July 28, 2021, 01:09:16 AM
Interior view

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210727/f6a3ce33bf27261896f632a59d8b346c.jpg)
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Phase on July 28, 2021, 01:38:03 AM
Interior view

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210727/f6a3ce33bf27261896f632a59d8b346c.jpg)

Rudi you left to quick man. Never did get to try this! I did get to listen at Dhiveshan's place on the Harbeth's, that was nothing short of STUNNING!
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: GECO on July 28, 2021, 03:39:57 AM
All is not lost. You can still audition it.
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: scrarfussi on July 28, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Rudi you left to quick man. Never did get to try this! I did get to listen at Dhiveshan's place on the Harbeth's, that was nothing short of STUNNING!
Beautiful looking inside
Title: Geco Audio Vanguard Power Amp - Views?
Post by: irengineer on August 30, 2021, 10:01:42 AM
I currently have a Vanguard as per the title on loan from @Heinrich and @GECO. Any owners willing to provide some feedback and ownership experience?

I am using the unit with a Mytek Brooklyn+ DAC as the preamp. It does a great job on the digital side, but the line input on the Mytek is clearly a mismatch with my iFi Zen Phono that sounds sublime under other conditions connected straight to my Valve Audio Exclame 100. Using Roon + Tidal as digital sources, plus a Rotel CD/DVD player. Switching sources is noisy on the DAC with a loud, worrying pop.

Clearly using the DAC as a preamp is not ideal, but I do not have another preamp (been using integrated amps for years). My speakers are Tannoy Saturn S10's with dual 10" drivers, including a dual concentric for tops and mids. The efficiency of the speakers is about 93db/w/m plus they have a benign load profile. I get the sense that the Vanguard offers a bit more "drive" due to the higher current output at any given volume, or simply has more headroom.

I have now left the amp on the entire weekend and did some serious listening yesterday. Will do more this week. If you are unsure of posting here, feel free to PM me.
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard Power Amp - Views?
Post by: Tonteldoos on August 30, 2021, 10:13:56 AM
https://www.avforums.co.za/index.php/topic,95356.0.html (https://www.avforums.co.za/index.php/topic,95356.0.html)
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard Power Amp - Views?
Post by: irengineer on August 30, 2021, 10:28:29 AM
@Tonteldoos Thanks!
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard Power Amp - Views?
Post by: SOAN on August 30, 2021, 10:44:06 AM
I would highly recommend you add a quality pre-amp to the mix. The power this amp has is on another level. Sadly I don't think your speakers will provide you with the full benefits of this amplifier. I have a number of tricky to drive speakers which this amplifier does amazingly on. You won't find many amps that can get bass of a pair of Maggies and still sound really composed and airy at the same time.
Title: Re: Geco Audio Vanguard
Post by: Phase on August 30, 2021, 07:10:28 PM
First time I heard the Vanguard was at Rudi, second time @ Dhiveshan's place (think it was the BiG Van) playing dCS - Manley pre - Van into Harbeth's. Both MarkC and myself agreed, absolutely sublime