Political Correctness

[JonnyP]

Well perhaps unsurprisingly, I'm a far left extreme Libertarian.  Managed to get further to the Left than Stalin and more Libertarian than Gandhi.  Actually pretty much a collectivist anarchist.........so I guess all possession is theft, but hey, do what you like as long as it doesn't hurt others.  Now let's make some lentil and mung bean stew and roll a fat one up in a squat commune smelling of patchouli and body odour.

[Katji]

hehheh  I can't do the category thing, self-identity category thing,...although I do understand how pol.sci. categories are important for communicating. 
"I reserve the right" to change my opinion every week. 

(Refer to the topic of "PC", this is another digression which is not quite relevant.  And "PC" is not about the content, it's about the concept.)

wrt to pol.sci. categories, I'm more concerned with what is good for South Africa.  (wrt that, I have a bombshell to drop that I've been saving up.  Clue: ref. the name of the finance minister.)     But ja, not according to any specific dogma whatever.  Realism and pragmatism.  Acknowledge the realities, analyse and plan, *and* implement.  (Face the realities and implement are both problems in SA.)

hahhah Anarchism...of course.  My heart and soul....    but I eventually realised.  There are 2 major flaws, somewhat fatal flaws. 1, human nature and (including that most people 95%+ are not interested in participating in meetings - and if you've ever had much to do with Body Corporates or whatever, you'll understand that)...
...and 2, peoples militias are ultimately not good enough for protection, defence.

Anyway, anarchism is a vague concept, you need to decide on a subgenre, at least either anarcho-syndicalist or anarchist-communist.

Libertarian...it's a joke, unrealistic, impractical, totally ignores the situation of the masses.  Is often a cover for rapacious "shock therapy" and so on.

Now, imo, I think social democracy like Europe now is probably as good as it gets.  But you have to get there.

Pic/s to follow...with personal history, illustration re anarchists/Lefties, and with ref. to smelly BO.  LOL

PS: Couple years ago, association with SA anarchist-communist group on Fb,...an illustration...of something...a little group of related people started a little peoples education / pol. education, in some township area in Gauteng... ANC thugs / maybe ANCYL members, assaulted them, one hospitalised iirc.  They said...so to speak: ANC rules /only.

[JonnyP]

Yep, it is only a funky little red/blue quiz.  Ultimately, it measures ideals rather than realities.  I’m far more on the side of pragmatism.  Would be interesting to know how our EFF student command and SASCO comrades score on such a scale as to a great extent pragmatism has never had a place in student politics (including my student days in the UK).  The protests have already started this year (before orientation even) and from what I’ve heard are probably justified (NB this is my personal view)

[Katji]

eish, justified is a mixed bag too.  Yes indeed, pragmatism and student politics.  All that too - most - can be traced to ANC failure. Most notably education, as a whole. 
I didn't do the quiz thing. (Not practical anyway - just in from about 1 hour at supermarket, and 276Mb mp3 still downloading, currently at 13 Kbs.  iow it's taking about 3 hours.  But at least SB worked,smoothly, I needed to pay water bill.)
Yes, ideals, sure... hehheh, as in anarchism.  ...Even religions are more helpful - but then again, that is a good point of Communism, no more pastors...deprecate customary circumcision too,...govt. intervention here is typically half-baked/feeble/corrupt.)

[legro]

There's a test for that! You can get a certificate for it, too.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Thanks for this, Shonver.

Weirdly, I'm a left libertarian ( more left than libertarian).

This even though I'm very much pro death penalty and firmly believe that some criminals cannot be rehabilitated ( the two, logically, go hand in hand ).

Anyway, fun.

[Shonver]

This even though I'm very much pro death penalty and firmly believe that some criminals cannot be rehabilitated ( the two, logically, go hand in hand ).

This is a tricky one. In this regard I find myself to be more of a pragmatist than an idealist.

[legro]

This is a tricky one. In this regard I find myself to be more of a pragmatist than an idealist.

Our homegrown perps of violent crime have shown themselves to be pragmatists to the core - forceful acquisition ( practice ) being the shortcut to conspicuous consumption (ideal ).

It would be kinder to our society if the law would deal with them in similar fashion.

[Katji]

I jumped to the conclusion that means yes, death penalty.  [@ Shonver]

+1. 
If incontrovertible evidence.  (Assuming no corruption.)
Murder.  Attempted murder if Grievous Bodily Harm.  Driving Under Influence resulting in death or GBH.  ...That's all, i think.
It doesn't have to be tricky like USA.  Not dragged out for years and no theatrical performances of protestors+media.

Corruption, etc.  Serious cases = Long sentences hard labour.
[idealism] I said in 1995, ANC, knowing there was a problem with cadre deployment and...so on, should have immediately started a programme on SABC and so on, teaching that it is a very serious crime against the people, stealing the peoples money.

PS:  Driving Under Influence resulting in death or GBH.  ...Perennial campaigns against drunk driving, always talking about the deaths, never mentioning the implications wrt paraplegics and amputated limbs and permanently debilitating organ damage and so on.

[Shonver]

I jumped to the conclusion that means yes, death penalty.  [@ Shonver]

It's not a simple matter. I don't think in terms of an eye for an eye. There are many instances where the perpetrators of crime merely exist on the fringes of normal society, not having a chance to fully integrate or discover their own worth, let alone appreciate the value of another's life. The people we easily think of as savages and low-lifes. Such are likely victims of circumstance; their value systems far removed from that of mainstream society. Should such a person be killed because they killed? Should they be given the opportunity to develop? Acquire correct self-awareness, social awareness and social skills? A broken correctional system, ostensibly there to rehabilitate, fails them and us and results in them repeating their ways. So now we become emotional and call for the death penalty. Because, logically, if they had been killed that would be the end of that. I'm sorry, the problem is too complex to have such a simple solution. And the root cause is not addressed. The concept of the death penalty as a deterrent only works for mainstream society, not to people who don't value their own lives.

However, I think that the most serious crimes such as treason, war crimes, human trafficking, genocide and war-mongering, etc., should at least be considered candidates for capital punishment.

[Katji]

Genocide and war crimes, but it must be clear.  War crimes, sure, if the usual rules of evidence are applied.
War-mongering is way too problematic, hard to define...for e.g., various players contribute to that scenario, whether wilfully or foolishly.
War, the context of war, is a difficult one, when one person or a few individuals are held responsible.  When it is individuals on the ground, who actually commit acts like mutilating corpses, dismembering bodies and so on,...well, there are "ordinary" instances of that in SA quite often.
In all of it, "where to draw the line" seems to be the difficult thing.

Treason, forget it - you know why - it is a definition problem.  SA being a prize example.  We would have quite a long list of big-name martyrs if the famous treason trial had led to executions instead of to prison.
Human trafficking, the definition has been broadened, so it extends to more than taking people as slaves.  People trick females into situations where they take them to other countries for sex work,...familiar stories.  They are probably better candidates for rehabilitation than so many killers, at least with long sentences.

[Jozua_2019]

My understanding is that death sentences should be avoided at all cost- not for being politically correct but to reduce the destructive impact on the soul.

[Trompie67]

My understanding is that death sentences should be avoided at all cost- not for being politically correct but to reduce the destructive impact on the soul.

Your understanding does not take into account the destructive impact upon the soul of the murdered person, nor their family & friends though?

I firmly believe in retributive justice. You intentionally plan & commit murder, or do so whilst committing another crime, you should pay with your life.

As Immanuel Kant argued: punishment is a matter of justice, justice which must be carried out by the state for the sake of the law, never for the sake of the criminal or that of the victim. If the guilty aren't punished justice isn't done, and when justice isn't done, then the very idea of law itself is undermined.

Simplistic? Absolutely. Solutionist? Absolutely.

My tax money funding someone convicted of murder for "life" (actually only 25 years in lovely SA, & they then are released back into society & the majority repeat offend anyway).

No thanks, I'd far rather my tax money went to fund (for example) higher education. In 2015 (the last available stats) it cost R350 a day to keep a scumbag incarcerated. That is the same as paying fees in 2019 for two students studying first year BSc. To hell with the murderer who only takes & never contributes.

I am aware of the often stated "death penalty does not deter crime" however there are such a great number of variables that it is next to impossible to obtain any credible information - and any study is easily skewed to already held beliefs.


https://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000983

[Crankshaft]

The best way to permanently remove a person from society.

[Jozua_2019]

Trompie67

I think I understand from where you coming from ? Some of my own family members have been murdered and the natural instinct is to demand max retribution.  To make matters worse , the killer was released without any consultation with the family. 

Where I do do differ from you is that your position is based on belief - which I suspect is based on other's unproven assumptions.  A learned man's (Kant) book knowledge can easily be trumped by practical experience. 

Based on other practicalities, I rather see the person suffer in jail than to cause more havoc elsewhere.

Jozua

[Trompie67]

Trompie67

I think I understand from where you coming from ? Some of my own family members have been murdered and the natural instinct is to demand max retribution.  To make matters worse , the killer was released without any consultation with the family. 

Where I do do differ from you is that your position is based on belief - which I suspect is based on other's unproven assumptions.  A learned man's (Kant) book knowledge can easily be trumped by practical experience. 

Based on other practicalities, I rather see the person suffer in jail than to cause more havoc elsewhere.

Jozua

Jozua - I am truly sorry you & your family had to first endure the crime & then the callous treatment from government. Inexcusable on both counts.

You mention belief - certainly not religious belief, and I do not think from assumptions made by others either.

Fact: 50% to 70% of SA criminals that are released (even on parole) re-offend within 3 years. Those are the ones that are caught when re-offending.
Fact: max prison term (murder being the longest) is 25 years, however many are realeased when the shortest term is served - so if the crim rapes (15 years) & then murders his victim (25 years) he will be out and about after 15 years max.
Fact: R350 a day per inmate = R127k a year (last stats are for 2015).
Fact: 1st year BSc at UCT is R63k (2019).

Of great importance too is the role retributive justice plays in maintaining order in society. It is supposed to help deter folk from mob justice & vigilantism. It is also of vital importance in ensuring that the "Average Joe" obeys the law as a preference & as a duty to society at large, rather than choosing to ignore and/or disobey the law because they see so many others doing so & not being punished for it.

The impact of a lack of punishment is plainly visible on our roads every single day - it started with minibus taxis disobeying the rules of the road & now it is so common among all drivers that nobody even blinks an eye anymore, and nobody gets punished either.

In the late 90's we had a staff member stab another. He was arrested on a charge of attempted murder. Released on bail of R50-00 the following Monday. Injured staff member returned to the stable yard (his place of residence & work) 2 weeks later. The very same day I brought him back from hospital the chap on bail pitched up. This time with a firearm, to do the job properly. He was successful. He then decided I would be his next target, as we'd fired him when he initially returned after being released on bail. He was unsuccessful. Practical experience is very unpleasant. He should never have been released on bail & I should never have had to do the states job for them - which they were not doing since 1990 in any case.

There is a reason I hold many of the older & established bike clubs in high regard. They have a very clear code of conduct & all involved know without any doubt what may and may not be said or done. Respect is key to everything. If the code is breached it is dealt with swiftly, if not immediately. Clear hierarchy, both within the club & within the region & ultimately the country. There is never any doubt nor grey areas. You f*ck up & retribution is swift & harsh. Which is exactly how I believe it should be everywhere, all the time.