Author Topic: Audiophiles throwin' down!  (Read 3297 times)

Offline Tzs503gp

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Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2019, 07:21:26 AM »
Well if you do not generate an income from it,it is a hobby. At what point hobby turns to addiction is between you and you psychiatrist -or wife.

...and architect and contractor. :giggle:

Offline shadow.clone

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2019, 02:09:34 PM »
Audiophiles are prone to stockholm syndrome.

Offline Rotten Johnny

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2019, 03:52:40 PM »
Audiophiles are prone to stockholm syndrome.

 :giggle:
I like beautiful melodies telling me terrible things -- Tom Waits

Free your mind...and your ass will follow.

Offline fdlsys

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2019, 04:27:28 PM »
Audiophiles are prone to stockholm syndrome.
Agree.
Minds of some audiophiles are easily hijacked by a show-off of magical measuring instruments and a display of an oscilloscope screen. If the oscilloscope screen is active and there’s a squeal of a test tone in the background – wow! Science!
Now, when on top of all this the whole show is narrated by a card-carrying member of a society claiming absolute (final) knowledge on the subject, whatever is claimed is as good as sold.
The fact that the oscilloscope screen proves the exact opposite of what the narrator claims, well, let's not be finicky.
And that, dear audiophiles, is how you fall for your hijacker...

 :angel:
The four building blocks of the universe are fire, water, gravel and vinyl. Dave Barry
Come back when you’ve lived a little. Miles Davis

Offline AlleyCat

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2019, 04:39:34 PM »
Ahhh Mike, you are on song!
"Not everything meaningful is measurable, and not everything measurable is meaningful" - Floyd Toole

Offline Nikkel

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2019, 06:49:23 PM »
...ok so at least this thread makes feel a bit better about my Zakspeed speaker cables :giggle:

Offline bbe22

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2019, 08:36:26 PM »
.........................still available online for us capetownians    ............:) 



Offline blizzard

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Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2019, 09:58:02 PM »
I did say when you come with a proper challenge your going to wait a long time  :giggle:

Offline Stanp

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2019, 02:35:27 AM »
I see one of the old favourite debates is back again. It is really not that difficult to conclude that buying expensive cables is a waste of money, an absolute waste. All an audio cable does is convey electrons at relatively low frequencies, so one must ask:" What material best conveys electrons?" The answer is silver. So buy yourself silver cables. And you need nice thick ones because the more material there is, all the more free electrons are available for conduction. But then copper is very close to silver with regards to conductivity, so I see no reason to not use copper; why waste your money on silver for such a small gain. If we were discussing communication cable; then I would agree that cable choice can be very important indeed; but not audio cable, no.

With regards to hearing a difference in different cables, I am sorry to say that I think it is in ones imagination. When trying out different cables, is it not a case of disconnecting the cables then reconnecting another set? If this is so, you are relying on your memory; there is a time lapse between disconnecting and reconnecting.That surely is not accurate.

Here are a couple links on the subject; I thought them good. One author gives reasons for why one may hear differences in different cables.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#expensive
https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cable-differences-3134603



Offline Burzat

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Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2019, 09:28:37 AM »
Dixon speaker cable is not bad at all. I cant make out any difference to the sound from Checkers rip cord or any other. And its cheap.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 09:36:09 AM by Burzat »
Women and children can be careless, but not men - Don Corleone

Offline Vaughan

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2019, 09:36:26 AM »
Dixon speaker cable is not bad all. I cant make out any difference to the sound from Checkers rip cord or any other. And its cheap.

Your audiophile card has been revoked with immediate effect!  ;D

Offline capetownwatches

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2019, 12:45:19 PM »
This is an interesting read too:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Audio_woo#Magical_cables

And if you don't like it, there's always this.... ;)





« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 01:02:02 PM by capetownwatches »


Kingrex HQ1=Audio-gd NFB11.32=Little Dot Mkll=SRM252S=Benchmark DAC1 USB=RL Concero
LCD2F=HD600=SR207=DT990Pro=K612Pro=K240S=K171Mkll=M4U2=Y50

Offline fdlsys

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2019, 03:59:12 PM »
... It is really not that difficult to conclude that buying expensive cables is a waste of money, an absolute waste.
...
Here are a couple links on the subject; I thought them good. One author gives reasons for why one may hear differences in different cables.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#expensive
https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cable-differences-3134603
I'm confused because what you are stating as your-fact does not agree with what is offered as scientifically acceptable fact (right?) in articles that you are referencing.

From the second article you referenced:
Quote
To find out, we measured the frequency response of a Revel F208 tower speaker by using a Clio 10 FW audio analyzer with three different 20-foot cables:

    the 12-gauge Linn cable we've been using for speaker measurements for the last five years or so
    a cheap 12-gauge Monoprice cable
    a cheap 24-gauge RCA cable

To minimize environmental noise, measurements were performed indoors. Neither the microphone nor the speaker nor anything else in the room was moved. We used an extra-long FireWire cable so the computer and all people could be out of the room entirely. We also repeated each test a few times to make sure that environmental noise wasn't appreciably affecting the measurements. Why so careful? Because we knew we'd be measuring subtle differences – if anything could be measured at all.

We then took the response with the Linn cable and divided it by the response of the Monoprice and RCA cables. This resulted in a graph that showed the differences in frequency response caused by each of the cables. We then applied 1/3-octave smoothing to help ensure no residual environmental noise snuck through.

It turns out that Devantier was right – we could measure this. As you can see in the chart, the results with the two 12-gauge cables were only subtly different. The biggest change was a boost of maximum +0.4 dB between 4.3 and 6.8 kHz.

Measured difference between a 12awg and 24awg cables was "huge" (autor's words). But, comparing 12 vs 24 and NOT EXPECTING a major difference was ... extreme.
Quote
But switching to the 24-gauge cable had a huge effect. For starters, it reduced the level, requiring normalizing of the measured response curve by boosting it +2.04 dB so it could be compared with the curve from the Linn cable. The 24-gauge cable's resistance also had obvious effects on frequency response. For example, it cut bass between 50 and 230 Hz by a maximum -1.5 dB at 95 Hz, cut midrange between 2.2 and 4.7 kHz by a maximum -1.7 dB at 3.1 kHz, and reduced treble between 6 and 20 kHz by a maximum of -1.4 dB at 13.3 kHz.

Here is another article (https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cables-make-a-difference-3134902) by the same author comparing well known better cables with generic cable of the same gauge.

His conclusion:
Quote
What these tests show is that the people who insist you can't possibly hear a difference between two different speaker cables of reasonable gauge are wrong. It is possible to hear a difference by switching cables.

Now, what would that difference mean to you? It'd definitely be subtle. As the blind comparison of generic speaker cables we did at The Wirecutter showed, even in the cases where listeners can hear a difference between cables, the desirability of that difference may change depending on the speaker you use.

From these admittedly limited tests, it looks to me like the big differences in speaker cable performance are due primarily to the amount of resistance in a cable. The biggest differences I measured were with the two cables that had substantially lower resistance than the others.

So yes, speaker cables can change the sound of a system. Not by a lot. But they can definitely change the sound.
The four building blocks of the universe are fire, water, gravel and vinyl. Dave Barry
Come back when you’ve lived a little. Miles Davis

Offline AlleyCat

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2019, 05:37:29 PM »

.......In audio reproduction I refer to this "pearling"as bloom as it reminds me of those sped up pictures of a flower budding. Mostly analogue devices can recreate it to goose bump inducing perfection as can some tube amplification devices and it is this ability that keeps me committed to horn speakers.I have never heard any digital doing this quite as well although just the other night Dead can Dance live with that Sinead O"Conner song via Tidal MQA through the latest Berkeley DAC did a damn good job. Over all the years  the eqpuiment that I remember fondly for being able to do this was the Conrad Johnson Premier 3 pre amplifier, some Cardas cable and the magical Cary 805 SET amps.The original Souther linear tracking arm could to this if set up to perfection,which is why I get all misty eyed every time BJ posts a "What's spinning" picture of his lovely Clearaudio table with the final development of THAT arm.

I had to borrow this post from Agaton Sax's thread on his beautiful turntable.

It is clear that THAT Cardas cable played an important and equal part in his vivid experience. Most listeners have not experienced a system like that , the conclusion is obvious?
"Not everything meaningful is measurable, and not everything measurable is meaningful" - Floyd Toole

Offline amirm

Re: Audiophiles throwin' down!
« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2019, 08:00:45 PM »
(a)   Circuit noise is not an excuse. It masks (to a great degree) the "imperfect Null" (sonic and visual) that Null tester produces but the remnants of the original signal are still present in "Null tester" video, every time you finish with Null tweaking and proclaim that Null has been achieved. Evidence of this further down.
What??? Did you just give away the farm?  Your ears hear nothing but noise but you resort to instrumentation to see if there is remnants of the original signal still there?

What happened to the argument of trusting your ears?

Ethan's test is not designed to show the null with respect to instrumentation but rather, what you folks advocate: "just listen."  Nulling can be made more precise but he is using his ears and stops when he can't hear the original source content anymore.

And if instrumentation can show differences that your ears can't in this test, what was the saying that science can't measure everything if a simple scope can show differences between cables????

Quote
(b)   Component thermal drift cannot be an issue after having the equipment powered for an hour (your words from the video). Unless the circuit design and thermal compensation are not up to intended usage. Using that as a reason why a significant signal residual becomes evident every time you swap the cables on Null Tester (assuming it's stable operating temperature) is just wrong.
No it isn't.  A null tester is like trying to balance yourself on top of a pin.  It seeks to amplify even the faintest differential by huge amount.  Different cables have different electrical characteristics leading to slight phase shifts or amplitudes.  Here is a simulation I did a while back for example on two different speaker terminals while driving a sample speaker model:



I am plotting both magnitude and phase differentials.  As we see, there is the tiniest amount of phase shift there which will upset a null.

Now, could there be other reasons, sure.  But think about it this way: if a magic knob on Etha's nulling device can eliminate the audible difference between two cables, it means there is nothing in the cable that can't be replicated in his box!  Mere changing of the amplitude of one input versus the other eliminates that difference between those two cables.  It matters not that you have to change that differential between cables.  What matters is that the audible difference can be so trivially eliminated.

Net, net, this is not an instrumentation proof.  Ethan's test is what you all advocate: audible proof.  Your ears hear the difference between the two inputs until the nulling device matches their levels and then boom, nothing but noise.  If you trust your ears, then you have to trust that there is no audible difference there.

My suggestion is to not keep digging here.  The more you do, the more the case is lost.  :)