Author Topic: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog  (Read 1090 times)

Offline King_Julian_S

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2018, 10:05:58 PM »
More since the 80’s when digital arrived.

But good labels still use master tapes.
Hence my comment above love that old scratchy ones they are clearly from analogue source.. the debate is also going on wrt. Older or newer LP’s .. again the debate ends in “it depends”

http://vinyljunkies.co/vinyl-101-original-vs-reissue/

Non audiophile music lover...

Offline Stanp

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2018, 10:55:52 PM »
The bottom line for me is that I can enjoy both formats, however, when listening to an LP and I experience any hiss, crackle or pop, I want to run away. I am extremely happy with my digital set up; it sounds wonderful, so I have no desire to go back to LP's.

For those, like me, who believe both formats can be good:
https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/digital-versus-analog2.htm
For the LP camp:
https://www.cnet.com/news/does-music-sound-better-when-its-digital-or-analog/#
For the Digital camp:
https://www.quora.com/Will-digital-audio-ever-sound-as-good-as-analog
Written by a lady mathematician :
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/which-sounds-better-analog-or-digital-music/

Offline AudioMule

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2018, 11:37:17 PM »
“what is truth”? To me all conversion and every capture method from tape to 0’s and 1’s alters the sound. I can only listen to the source and hope to retain (or enhance) all that it is giving me. I think that above a certain build quality level we get close to the source but each still device/system has its own sound. We go with what feels right to us individually.
There's nothing wrong with your system, you are just listening to wrong music on it.

Offline Steerpike

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2018, 02:18:48 AM »
But for me it’s still game over no need to debate any further.
And the winner is 15-30ips

I'll second that ^^^.
Very few people ever get to hear a tape machine that can run at 30IPS, much less in their own home.

One must study the Philips patent (and later codicils) which explains in detail the concept of digital recording (the Red Book standard).   Back in 1975, it was realised that a 16 bit sample could never recreate the exact waveform generated by an analogue sound signal.  Engineers at Philips and Sony realised that, in order to "improve" as it were, the possibility of recreating the waveform, the sample rate would need to be increased to at least 24 bit, or else (the clever bit), oversampling and regeneration of the re-sampled signal (off the CD surface) would, as it were, fill in the gaps.

Sample rate is not measured in bits; it is measured in Herts, kiloHertz, or bits-per-second. "24" or "16" is the word length, not the sample rate - word lenghth defines (or limits) the dynaimc range of the recording, sample rate defines (or limits) the frequncy response. 16 bit gives you 96dB of dynamic range - no earthly home has an environment where this can be taken full advantage of.
24 bits is fantasy - the analogue circuitry, room behaviours, studio noise, system noise, masks and buries the least significant 4 bits. Realistically, you can make use of at most 20 bits of word length.

Oversampling is not used to increase the information content or resolution of the recording. It cannot do that. Oversampling has ONE function only: to make the reconstruction filter simpler, cheaper, and with fewer artifacts in the audible band. In Philps' case, they also put it to god effect n that they could use their existing 14-bit DAC chips to convert a 16-bit sample at full accuracy, but doing two conversions - first time on the 14 most significant bits, and second time on the remainder. Obviously it had to be done at twice the speed, but they went to 4x the speed in order to make the reconstruction filters sound better too.
It is a mathematical axiom that every time you double the sampling rate, you get one extra bit of "resolution", but it is not true resolution as it does not exist in the original recoding or represent anything recorded. It is an averaged value, that has been interpolated by a playback filter - a filter that can be either digital or analogue.

actually - the 1 and 0 is just a representation of two different states .... and these are on and off which is a natural state for most things to be in .... if you look at a CD player - its just a unifunctional computer and there is a precedence in nature for how a computer works - its called a human brain

a computer just works a little more simply because it works in those two states ie on or off and the human brain is a bit more complicated because it is capable of more states ie the equivalent of 10 from what i have read somewhere but simply put bits are not just 1s and 0s because thats just a way of naming the on and off states that those bits use to work

There is nothing inherent in computing technology that says of dictates 0 and 1. Designers happen to have chosen binary mathematics because it offers very good noise immunity. You could quite feasibly build a trinary computer, or higher number of logic states. The more states you have, the more complex the hardware becomes, and less reliable, and George Boole had created a nice set of mathematics that worked on binary data sets. It was the simple solution, not the only solution.

****
I perceive in digital/analogue or LP/CD arguments a degree of panic and insecurity. People fear that they have not made the best choice. If someone else is using old science and is enjoying it, perhaps 'I' have made a bad decision and chosen a doomed route, or a route that doesn't necessarily show me to be embracing the latest fashion. "I" must justify my use of music streaming services by pointing out how many other people have made the same choice.




Offline Stanp

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2018, 05:04:58 AM »
Logically a LP ought to be superior to a CD because all you need to do is amplify what is on the LP; where as with a CD you have to recreate the original analogue. But if you have a very good DAC, I believe in a blind test, it will be very very difficult to distinguish between the two.

Like everything in this world, nothing is perfect; both formats have their own inherent problems.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 05:10:57 AM by Stanp »

Online DeonC

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2018, 06:43:09 AM »
Both formats are flawed. CDs try to mathematically recreate the original waveform. It has been sliced and diced, and they sow it back together as good as possible. Can get pretty good, but still flawed. Analogue has to skew the waveform (RIAA encoding) or they won't get more than one track on the side of a LP (and the tracking would be a nightmare). Now the phonostage has to try and undo this reshaping as best it can, while dealing with the unlinearities created by a single needle trying to reproduce stereo. Also therefore flawed. R2R? Same RIAA curve that has to be un-curved. The fact that we get listenable music is testament to how good the technologies are, no matter the age.

For me, I have both and enjoy both. I love the convenience of digital, being able to skip tracks and play random tracks and artists. At the same time I also enjoy the drama of analogue. And playing an LP forces me to listen to all the tracks of an album, which often leads to me discovering some hidden gems that I would not have heard in the 'random play-only-the-best-tracks' digital style of listening. OTOH, that also forces me to listen to tracks I like less. But so are the up and downs of both formats.

I have heard some superb systems in both camps, and I have also experienced a lowly, stock-standard Lenco TT totally destroy a Rotel RCD-965 CD-player (one of the best of it's day, and a really nice CDP, IMHO). You don't have to spend much to enjoy great analogue (a suitably tweaked Lenco will totally shock some folks), and these days you don't have to spend a mint to enjoy good digital (some really brilliant DACs are cheap these days- just spend some time building a proper output stage and you'll be shocked at the results).

So, in closing, I enjoy both. Love my LPs (have a few thousand of them), love my CDs (yup, standard redbook, and I have many, probably also a few thousand). Don't have the money for high-end R2R, but I'll get there. So now I leave you to make your own conclusions.
Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.

Offline Gerlach

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2018, 08:42:53 AM »
Every time I see a thread like this, I imagine a very similar debate happening on a car forum.... petrol vs diesel?

Point is ... there is no answer.

Or like a cable thread  :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:
Good drivers have dead flies on the side windows. (Walter Röhrl)

Offline King_Julian_S

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2018, 09:24:45 AM »
Or like a cable thread  :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:

Don’t start something now .
Cables work better on digital 
Non audiophile music lover...

Offline 2wice

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2018, 10:15:13 AM »
So, in closing, I enjoy both. Love my LPs (have a few thousand of them), love my CDs (yup, standard redbook, and I have many, probably also a few thousand).

Offline Steerpike

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2018, 10:45:38 AM »
Analogue has to skew the waveform (RIAA encoding) or they won't get more than one track on the side of a LP (and the tracking would be a nightmare). Now the phonostage has to try and undo this reshaping as best it can, while dealing with the unlinearities created by a single needle trying to reproduce stereo. Also therefore flawed. R2R? Same RIAA curve that has to be un-curved.

Compact Disc also uses a pre-emphasis / de-emphasis equalisation curve, just as is done for tape & LPs.
It is selectable by the producer, and a flag in the sub-code data tells the player what de-emphasis to use (exactly the same as the holes punched in the back edge of a cassette tape to tell the player what equalisation to use).

Much computer "ripping" software does not make any correction for this, so the wave file extracted from a CD often has a skewed frequency response.

Offline chrisc

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Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2018, 11:15:59 AM »
Scientific answers to a complicated question might be correct, but will be be little understood by lay folk.   I have had to sell, explain and translate technical equipment to the public for years.  Quoting stats and things like "low resistance" and "standby time" is a waste of breath.  I found that if you provided succinct and straightforward instructions, they would get it right most of the time

As a general rule, I found lawyers and accountants to be the most inept in understanding technical terms

When I employed technical staff, one of the first questions asked of them was "explain the difference between AC and DC".  About 1/3 could.  Often you got a blank stare
Even duct tape can’t fix stupid… but it can muffle the sound

Offline King_Julian_S

Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2018, 11:32:30 AM »
Compact Disc also uses a pre-emphasis / de-emphasis equalisation curve, just as is done for tape & LPs.
It is selectable by the producer, and a flag in the sub-code data tells the player what de-emphasis to use (exactly the same as the holes punched in the back edge of a cassette tape to tell the player what equalisation to use).

Much computer "ripping" software does not make any correction for this, so the wave file extracted from a CD often has a skewed frequency response.
Very interesting D, guess it’s just a little something that the nice video someone posted in BJ’s thread forgot to include .

Shows you how gullible we all are and how there’s always a bias( unconscious perhaps) to market a certain position.

Now I get the jist of your previous comment wrt. Insecurity etc...

Also I think Chris hit the nail above wrt. The science being “not understood”, but here one has to question wether it’s intentional for the science to leave it up to the consumers ?
If not than perhaps they should all only manufacture and sell complete integrated systems,  cables included etc to leave no doubt in the users mind that everything is well matched etc..
or ? is it the work of the beancounter,  to ensure that doubt exists and then rely on marketing to make sure everyone is even more insecure.

 Are we unsuspecting , insecure victims,  having said that ?

 


 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 11:37:03 AM by King_Julian_S »
Non audiophile music lover...

Offline ron g

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2018, 11:49:40 AM »
I perceive in digital/analogue or LP/CD arguments a degree of panic and insecurity. People fear that they have not made the best choice. If someone else is using old science and is enjoying it, perhaps 'I' have made a bad decision and chosen a doomed route, or a route that doesn't necessarily show me to be embracing the latest fashion. "I" must justify my use of music streaming services by pointing out how many other people have made the same choice.


this may just be the most sensible thing said in this entire thread.
kind of like 2 groups of schoolkids arguing that their choice of a particular toy is better than the other group's choice.

is it just me or have bitcoin people gone a bitquiet because its a bitdown? #bitter

Online naughty

Re: Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2018, 12:12:02 PM »
I perceive in digital/analogue or LP/CD arguments a degree of panic and insecurity. People fear that they have not made the best choice. If someone else is using old science and is enjoying it, perhaps 'I' have made a bad decision and chosen a doomed route, or a route that doesn't necessarily show me to be embracing the latest fashion. "I" must justify my use of music streaming services by pointing out how many other people have made the same choice.

actually this theory is all hogwash and doesnt hold a drop of water .... for example i am one of those saying that streaming leads the way .... yet i dont subscribe to a single streaming service (yet) and all the music i listen to is contained on my own home network - so that whole statement above is actually total nonsense and nowhere near the truth - and thats more what this is about

Im totally sorry but the truth is that people caught up with a niche desire dont want to recognize themself as such and hate that they are not part of the majority, or really cant keep up the REAL world HINT : the niche desire doesnt contain any ones and zeros
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 12:14:43 PM by naughty »

Offline King_Julian_S

Get in the ring- Digital vs Analog
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2018, 12:49:12 PM »
actually this theory is all hogwash and doesnt hold a drop of water .... for example i am one of those saying that streaming leads the way .... yet i dont subscribe to a single streaming service (yet) and all the music i listen to is contained on my own home network - so that whole statement above is actually total nonsense and nowhere near the truth - and thats more what this is about

Im totally sorry but the truth is that people caught up with a niche desire dont want to recognize themself as such and hate that they are not part of the majority, or really cant keep up the REAL world HINT : the niche desire doesnt contain any ones and zeros
So you don’t stream , don’t own a TT and yet you have the most to say about how good or bad those things are ?
I don’t get it that you are trying to tell someone where to get off and yet you seem confused debating things you don’t even seem to have a drop of experience with form any angle other than hearsay or a once off experience by the sound of things ?

I would therefore think you are actually an exception and arguments and debates can not cater for one exception the comment D made is a general one , so cool it doesn’t apply to you we get that  , but that doesn’t make it wrong , just wrong for you I totally agree with it and so does some members above... maybe we are in the minority in the end and that will still make it right for some and it right for others it will never be quoting you “TOTAL HW”...

So you hate that you are part of the niche audiophile world on avforums ? Explains your fuse ..

Anyway , I know I just broke my promise to the mods to please consider your short Temper( cause some members have that privilege it seems)  , so I feel I have to explain to you that I am not attacking you just making an observation,  so read it calmly and ignore the noise around the core of the story.
Non audiophile music lover...