Author Topic: Hivi 3Way Build  (Read 1924 times)

Offline Air

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Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2018, 08:23:32 PM »
I think that the risk of using published specs and measurements of drivers are not comparable to how they would perform on an intended baffle.  I learned to appreciate the competency of driver manufacturers. Part of the skill or artistry I believe is to  envisaged how a driver would perform in a baffle with a crossover as well. A simple 1St order electrical network maybe result in a perfect 2nd order a acoustic response, or even a 3rd order filter in some instances with a superb linearity to boot. Lots of experimentation coupled with doing measurements and of course listening help to develop a feel of what is possible, what could work snd hopefully what might shoot the lights out in terms of performance. Going by the book is a good way to start but the the intuitive understanding of a driver is what makes all the difference.
In terms of crossover frequencies I tend to agree to keep it out of the 300hz to 3Khz range in a 3 way. The lower the higher the better, so I aim for a mid that can work between 150hz and 4Khz with a minimum of heavy handed crossover intervention whilst  keep distortion and extreme beaming under control. Coherence in midband, for me, trumps many of the mainstream priorities like power handling etc.
 
The higher sensitivity of the bass driver is not a blessing but almost a necessity, else one would have to pad down the mid driver and in the process loose precious energy in the form of heat dissipation an possible coloration of the midband. With a 3 way crossover there will also be a slight gain before the high pass crossover which will necessitate a bass unit with a higher sensitivity. Losses in low pass crossover would be also need to kept in mind in the equation. A slight slope down from 100hz to 3/5Khz is also probably more of a balanced and musical presentation that a completely flat response, inless of course the speaker are intended to be used with a amplifier with low damping(typically valves)



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Offline El Sid

Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2018, 11:31:04 PM »
I'm definitely no expert, but it seems to me that none of those drivers are very flat from around 400 - 1500 Hz - shouldn't you consider a different mid?

one thing i realised
flat isn't necessarily a prerequisite. i am working with some drivers atm that aren't flat but they sound incredibly good

I wisely say that having just bought a pair of Philips 9710:



Online bbe22

Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2018, 09:06:45 PM »
Back to The HiVi drivers as per OP
this might be of help to PJF
http://www.swanspeaker.com/support/download/m1%20kit.pdf       use the F5 with a different HiVi  tweeter , crossed over at 3.5K.      included  X-over schematic
( the RT1C is still available )  https://www.parts-express.com/hivi-rt1c-a-planar-isodynamic-tweeter--297-400



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Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2018, 06:37:21 AM »
Hi guys. So, after some consideration I have come to a realization that the Hivi F5N
will not really work as a mid in this 3 way build. Thank you for everyoneís input on that matter. Iíve been reading up a bit on dome midrange drivers and I quite like them. The thing is they are not cheap and I payed a lot less for the F5Nís. Is there anyone who has some of these drivers or knows where to get them? Iíve looked at the Dayton Audio, Hivi and Visaton. The other thing Iíve been looking at is closed back midrange drivers. Has anyone used them?


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Online Shonver

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Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2018, 08:05:47 AM »
There are some nice dome midranges available. They are typically 2 inch and built like a large tweeter. However, if you can get hold of a 3" or 4" cone mid (will need its own enclosure, around 1 litre or more) you will end up with better dynamics. The problem with domes is that they have relatively small displacement and can overload easily. That being said, a Morel MDM55 handles overload much better than a Dayton RS52, so they are not equal.

Here are some closed-back drivers from Visaton. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with them, so can't comment on their performance. http://www.pqsound.co.za/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=17_115_151&zenid=714750a1eece3b52d92c9078b4d092c2

So, two questions:

(1) what brought you to disqualify the HiVi (reasons)?
(2) what is your budget for an alternative mid?
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Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2018, 08:31:51 AM »
Thanks Shonver.

1. Low FS of 52Hz
2. Qes 0.47
3. EBP 110
4. Price of crossovers

With the higher EBP suggesting a vented enclosure Iím not sure how it will react in a small sealed enclosure. Hiviís recommended enclosure volume is 5 liter.


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Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2018, 09:39:35 AM »
You can model the response in a sealed enclosure (WinISD). The EBP factor is only for optimising bass response. You don't need low end extension in a midrange, so you can practically cross over where you want.
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Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2018, 09:57:53 AM »
Quick sim showing F5N in sealed enclosure from 1 to 5 litres in 1 litre increments.



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Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2018, 10:23:08 AM »
Thanks for that info. Maybe Iíll just stick with the F5N. My next step is to find the right crossover in the range of 350/3500.


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Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2018, 10:26:51 AM »
I was also thinking about using real wood for the front baffle as I have a nice piece of african mahogany, which is also a tone wood.


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Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2018, 11:25:55 AM »
I'm not a believer in using the enclosure like an instrument, so excuse me if I take a step back on this. I'm sure others have gone this route; it's best to hear from them.
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Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2018, 05:10:41 PM »
good advice so far
......so from post from Shonver it is follows that a 3-5 litre enclosure could possibly take care of the bottom end of the F5 should you use it in this build. You then have to roll off the bass to match in the x-over. This would be the simplest option  if it turns out to practical between the 2 drivers. 
The bigger issue is the mid to tweeter X-over, I don't recall a known example using those two drivers, you would have to build out the box , measure or have it measured and go from there -
A long as you don't have joints in the hard wood and properly braced,  it should be ok for the baffle  (min 16 mm preferably 22 ??) Otherwise laminate onto MDF , see for example my "more Blue" project or SeanS's  project Loudspeaker for fun , both on the forum....
(and of course if you do several joints  the cosmetics / performance  of the speaker baffle would not be a factor )

Online bbe22

Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2018, 06:30:21 PM »
Many 2.5 way designs  use more than one driver sharing the same space.
Mostly these midbass drivers (2) are the same. One is just rolled off earlier in the X-over, outcome better bass (lower distortion , higher SPL),  compensates for the  baffle step  , and so on
Perhaps it isn't compulsary for that to be the case (similar) and you may be able to use the f5 and F8 in the same space  thus negating the mid enclosure ?

Offline Rotelman

Re: Hivi 3Way Build
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2018, 12:14:15 PM »
Just something I saw online.

I can't contribute much from experience side of things, as I'm still busy with my first build, also a 3 way with similair drivers, so do take what I say with a pinch of salt.

I don't know if this is something you've taken care of or even if it really is as critical for your application, but I went through a number of iterations involving the geometry, volume and optimal spacings between drivers, as when one places the drivers at optimum spacings, this might affect the baffle dimensions which affects the volume in turn etc.

There are a number of online flowcharts, calculators and simulators that can assist with such.

I would encourage you to look into this and finalise it prior to jumping into cross-overs and the like.

I was lucky enough to get hold of some DLS Reference 6.3 cross-overs which are actually for high-end car audio, but the attractive side of them were the jumpers where the bass output can be tweaked phase wise, the mid output can be tweaked frequency wise and the tweeter output can be tweaked with 0, -2 and 04 db. I thought that this was a good and safe way for a 1st build in order to allow post construction adjustment to optimise glitches that crept through the design process.

Best of luck with the build further.