Author Topic: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.  (Read 6191 times)

Offline ...

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The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« on: August 10, 2011, 10:01:09 PM »
I don't want to derail other threads and every time I post in some TT thread it get's greeted with a certain sense of hostility.
So I have started this thread as I gave see some interesting developments and trails of thought over the past few weeks.
Some of the comments that triggered this off.

I'll watch this thread as I'm starting to wonder if there's such a thing as a good sound old tt. I mean, what is left after changing:
1. Cartridge
2. Tone arm
3. New mat
4. Plinth
5. Move the power supply out
6. Rewire.
7. Sort out the drive mechanism, whether its bearings or motor or belt whatever.

Seems you might as well build your own from scratch as there's  nothing (not much that makes a difference anyway) left once you're done.  ;p

Anyway, its interesting to follow your journey. As I said before, once you can create your own you really understand.

Correct, GITM tried this a few years back and realised that cots escalate like mad when it comes to the final production.
I know some like to experiment, some like to tweak and mod and go mad and in the end of the day they are still not entirely satisfied, they (a) end up selling their highly modified deck for a pittance and (b) they eventually invest all their money in to something decent made a a reputable name with some "modern mods" already done to deal with the grizzly's around vinyl or (c) even worse, they ditch it all in leu if digital playback.
Now I don't see an issue with modding and such, one could get a Thorens or a Lenco and really spend some good money and get them up to scratch (excuse the pun) to deal with their more modern rivals, now to me this makes sense, these tables have some great sentimental value.
For me, I will rather save the money on big mods and get a decent deck to start off with, reason for this I have had a good taste of what the more mid to high end and esoteric vinyl playback tools can do to music and my ears.
I have a deck which is my "nostalgic" deck, it's a modified Rega, pretty as heck but at this stage essentially an ornament.


The thing which got to me is that many fellas still don't consider vinyl as a serious and worthwhile source of music.

mafioso

Now this comment is one I really enjoy.
I will even go as far as to say that some people get in to vinyl purely because they are inquisitive or they have heard that it "sounds better" so they get in to the whole game under false pretenses.
A garage or boot sale or a hand me down here and there and they expect magic, as we all know, this magic only appears after some meticulous care has been taken and some extreme measures have been taken to get the deck properly isolated and some other mods have been done to get a better arm on there and the list goes on.
Some of these fellas walk away telling people that vinyl sucks and that it's for old people who cling to the sentimental.

This approach I like :


For now I will use this Sansui while I am looking for the proper thing!! And saving up some $$ for it. ;D

Dwelt

and then :

Hi All.
Just to get this out there.
1.) I do have a few LPs and would like to have the equipment to do them justice.
2.) Another reason is because vinyl and TT's remind me of my youth, sitting on the carpet listening to mom's LPs on a rainy day when I could not play outside.
3.) There is something about vinyl that keeps me coming back. When cleaning out the cupboard those LP's always stay in the "I will never get rid of this" pile.
4.) I did not have a player for some years and when I got hold of the Sansui I thought this would surely be better than nothing.

With that all said I am now hopefully starting a new era in my HiFi experience and will be starting a new thread regarding the Lenco as soon as I have it.

Thanks for all of the comments and interest.

Look out for my Lenco thread.

Thanks
Dewald

I can sense a big convert to the format in the making here.

Thanks folks, that's all for tonight, feel free to flame me and whatever else it might take (and the obligatory smiley)  ;)

Offline Juggy

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2011, 10:05:53 PM »
Never thought I'd say this but I agree having recently gone through this excercise myself.

Who'woulda'thunkit

Offline GECO

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2011, 10:15:46 PM »
 ;D

 ... so true  ;)

Offline naughty

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2011, 10:19:12 PM »
vinyl is better than digital sound quality wise ..... of that i have no doubt - but the problem is that to start a vinyl collection in this day and age is not always feasible from two points of view

1) sometimes what you want is not available - then you have to compromise by getting stuff you dont want or dont like just to keep listening to vinyl
2) you wont get the quantity of music you crave ie hard drives are now cheap - so having a collection of 100000+ tracks on a one terabyte drive in mp3 form is common ..... try to calculate how many LP's you need to have 100000+ songs on vinyl

so yeah it made huge sense in the days when the records were plentifully available and these days even though vinyl is making a comeback most music on vinyl is still rare to get hence why i wont be joining the queue unless records stop being mostly "unobtanium"

so i think that what you sense is more scepticism (sometimes healthy and probably at other times undeservedly the opposite) based generally on reasons of practicality and not really based on overt hostility toward you personally

for sure ... if i had kept my collection of vinyl instead of giving it all away like a fool when i started my CD collection then i would have had a convincing reason to be a part of the vinyl "rebirth" process

Offline eldene

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2011, 10:20:20 PM »
So funny i was just thinking the same whole week. Is it really worth it, all the mods, does it really pay off in the old end.Then again I envy those that take on these projects, and has good results in the old end ,as i feel it takes lots of effort and time oh yes and money.to do all of that.
Don't try and fool an old fool

Offline Atjan

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2011, 10:44:55 PM »
Never thought I'd say this but I agree having recently gone through this excercise myself.

Who'woulda'thunkit

+1
 :D
It's only hifi people....

Offline Shonver

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2011, 11:05:06 PM »
So funny i was just thinking the same whole week. Is it really worth it, all the mods, does it really pay off in the old end.Then again I envy those that take on these projects, and has good results in the old end ,as i feel it takes lots of effort and time oh yes and money.to do all of that.

Vinyl is very much a hands-on hobby. It does not necessarily imply DIY, though. Lenco L75 (incidentally) just happens to be a turntable that you are not likely to get satisfaction from without going to work on it. Other TTs (like Juggy's Thorens TD125) don't need special work.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 11:16:21 PM by Shonver »
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Offline Juggy

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2011, 11:06:50 PM »
Vinyl is very much a hands-on hobby. It does not necessarily imply DIY, though. Lenco L75 (incidentally) just happens to be a turntable that you are not likely to get satisfaction from without going to work on it. Other TTs (like Juggy's Thorens TD124) don't need special work.

Erm, TD125 ;)

Offline Shonver

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2011, 11:17:26 PM »
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Offline fdlsys

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2011, 11:20:58 PM »
Erm, TD125 ;)
Spit'n'polish, that's it...  ;)
The four building blocks of the universe are fire, water, gravel and vinyl. Dave Barry
Come back when you’ve lived a little. Miles Davis

Offline skollie

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 12:08:36 AM »
Spit'n'polish, that's it...  ;)


I'd like to think I wuz the inventor of the solder roll trick ;D If you like it, it cost nothing. If you have money burning a hole in your broeksak, by all means go ape - order a custombuilt spindle weight with O-rings, collet clamped and 24ct goldplating with your family crest on the crown. Or killer spikes fit for the Marquis de Sade or whatever. I'm afraid throwing money at vinyl without KNOWLEDGE will not bring you good sound.. Only KNOWLEDGE about audio in general and how and what works or doesn't work, will give you sound to blow you and your mates away.

@
...

+1 for telling it like it should be. My answer to the vinyl conundrum? Read books on the subject. Arm yourself with KNOWLEDGE. Most of the things I know, I learned from dog-eared hand-me-down magazines and old British and American audio books picked up for cents at charity shops or flea markets. Libraries are also free and have lots of books on the subject.

The things I know are not much - but I DO know what to look out for as I've seen the best brands written about in the books and magazines dating back to the mid 50's of the previous century.

If you have gained knowledge and have a bit of diy in you, the very best part of all of the vinyl conundrum is the unexpected find in the most surprising places. Since you now have knowledge and know which is bad and which is good, gooi a deadpan face as the seller of something desirable knows less than you do, offer a third of what he wants for it.

If he doesn't fall for it, walk away. Another one will crop up sooner or later.

All of this, makes for a most enjoyable and rewarding hobby. Good sound, new diy skills and new friends.

mafioso  
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 12:26:48 AM by mafioso »
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Offline alternativeroute

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 12:09:42 AM »
Spit'n'polish, that's it...  ;)


 :D is that Mr Mafiosa's specially turned solder weight on there?

Back to topic here:

Vinyl is a tricky business indeed. It shares some of the same pitfalls as its analogue buddy - speakers. No matter how good the speakers you buy (and run with some superb ultra-linear amplification) your room is going to come into play. If the room ain't right (or as right as possible) then you are essentially listening to some or other colouration. The same goes for vinyl set-up. Whether you go for a suspended deck such as the Linn LP12 or Thorens TD125/150 or an old idler like the Garrard 301/401, Lenco GL70/75/78 or a Thorens TD124, the more modern Rega P2/P3 etc... You are buying into a synergy of components that work together in a certain way and add a sonic signature to a greater or lesser degree to the music as represented on the vinyl disc.

If you want to listen to vinyl reproduction that is devoid of colouration then you need to spend big bucks and get a modern day SME deck with a modern day SME arm... Lots of people who have listened to such a set-up report it as being sterile... The same can be said of speakers with a ruler flat frequency response - they sound sterile. So, we like a little bit of colouration to a greater or lesser degree (cue valve amplification).

Tweaking...

I am coming to realise more and more that the world of tweaking and changing is fraught with contradictions. To give an example I have been looking at Rega p2/p3 decks of late. My first impression at getting my hands on one and taking it apart is that the construction and material choice is a joke! But then, the more I looked at the deck and the more I played it, the more I realised that the planar designer needs to be credited with some seriously good lateral thinking as the deck sounds a whole lot better than the sum of its parts... If you start fettling with that then essentially it would be quite easy to ruin the synergy that has been created. An example is the Rega planar plinth. On first inspection it looks like k@k cheap chipboard with a faux metalic laminate added. How can that work? Well if you go back to the research done in the late 50's by Mr Briggs of Wharfedale fame you will read that after testing many materials extensively he wrote very favourably of the damping properties of chipboard. Then if you read the research done on laminate strengthening then all of a sudden the Rega k@k plinth makes a whole lot of sense:  a great plinth that can be made cheaply...

There are loads of proven tweaks out there. but. At the same time there are loads of people pissing in the breeze which does not mean that the wind direction has changed, there just loads of okes with wet feet.

Other than that, hell it's fun.  :)


The past, the present and the future walk into a bar. It was tense.  :nutter:

Offline Captain Ahab

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 05:46:33 AM »

Vinyl is a tricky business indeed. It shares some of the same pitfalls as its analogue buddy - speakers. No matter how good the speakers you buy (and run with some superb ultra-linear amplification) your room is going to come into play. If the room ain't right (or as right as possible) then you are essentially listening to some or other colouration. The same goes for vinyl set-up. Whether you go for a suspended deck such as the Linn LP12 or Thorens TD125/150 or an old idler like the Garrard 301/401, Lenco GL70/75/78 or a Thorens TD124, the more modern Rega P2/P3 etc... You are buying into a synergy of components that work together in a certain way and add a sonic signature to a greater or lesser degree to the music as represented on the vinyl disc.

If you want to listen to vinyl reproduction that is devoid of colouration then you need to spend big bucks and get a modern day SME deck with a modern day SME arm... Lots of people who have listened to such a set-up report it as being sterile... The same can be said of speakers with a ruler flat frequency response - they sound sterile. So, we like a little bit of colouration to a greater or lesser degree (cue valve amplification).

Tweaking...

I am coming to realise more and more that the world of tweaking and changing is fraught with contradictions. To give an example I have been looking at Rega p2/p3 decks of late. My first impression at getting my hands on one and taking it apart is that the construction and material choice is a joke! But then, the more I looked at the deck and the more I played it, the more I realised that the planar designer needs to be credited with some seriously good lateral thinking as the deck sounds a whole lot better than the sum of its parts... If you start fettling with that then essentially it would be quite easy to ruin the synergy that has been created. An example is the Rega planar plinth. On first inspection it looks like k@k cheap chipboard with a faux metalic laminate added. How can that work? Well if you go back to the research done in the late 50's by Mr Briggs of Wharfedale fame you will read that after testing many materials extensively he wrote very favourably of the damping properties of chipboard. Then if you read the research done on laminate strengthening then all of a sudden the Rega k@k plinth makes a whole lot of sense:  a great plinth that can be made cheaply...

There are loads of proven tweaks out there. but. At the same time there are loads of people pissing in the breeze which does not mean that the wind direction has changed, there just loads of okes with wet feet.

Other than that, hell it's fun.  :)
Well put Jacques.

Offline ghostinthemachine

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2011, 08:04:53 AM »
Correct, GITM tried this a few years back and realised that cots escalate like mad when it comes to the final production.

Guilty as charged

... and guys, if you ever want to go this route then you have to have VERY DEEP POCKETS! You also need access to top-class engineers and machinists otherwise its a waste of time and money.

It is better to get a decent deck right from the start and work from there. Nothing wrong with tweaking a Rega...



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Offline IvMan

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Re: The usual TT dilemma's and other things.
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 08:41:33 AM »
It is better to get a decent deck right from the start and work from there. Nothing wrong with tweaking a Rega...

That is sage advice right there!
The big money pit begins when you want to start cheapskate, and end up paying for upgrade after replcement after upgrade .......