HD PVR vs DVD playback

[Daniel Weston]

I was watching the Sunday night movie on the HD channel and I am almost 100% certain that the sound effects and bass response were superior to watching a dvd of similar action content via my Onkyo dvd player. Is there a simple and logical explanation for this? I've always presumed that dvd playback would always sound better than the PVR.
Just to refresh. The dvdp is connected to the receiver via a digital cable. The PVR is connected to the receiver via an HDMI cable.
Cheers

[Homer]

I'll agree with you. The picture from the HD channels is better than some blu-rays I've seen.

[WaterHond]

Playback is coming off a professional grade Video machine at Mnet/DSTV - it stays in the digital domain all the way to your amps processor. So yes, your looking at and listening to a copy of the studio original without the DVD compression.

[KenMasters]

If you guys get Dolby Digital Plus in S.A., that sounds awesome, better than DVD quality. The only negative is the occasional break in audio when the broadcast skips a beat.

Regular DD tracks on my side of the world though I find vary in quality, they can sound as good as a DVD but most often they sound a little more compressed, they just lack a little dynamic range sometimes and I notice the lower bitrate in the dialogue.

[naughty]

it stands to reason that the picture quality on the HD TV would look better than DVD because according to some random quote from a website on a Google search

Native DVD resolution is 720x480 for NTSC, and 720x576 for PAL, but there is an aspect flag that specifies whether it is full-screen (4:3) or wide-screen

whereas the HD video content is 1280 x 720 progressive - and you might be able to improve the visual aspects of a DVD slightly if you have an excellent player with some decent upscaling but on the cheapies there isnt much hope of actually seeing DVD at its best ..... having said that you cant add whats not there hence the DVD upscaling just interpolates and fills in pixels where there are not any so it reduces the graininess so it will make the picture lok improved and with my DVD player i do see some discs that play incredibly well but still nowhere near as good as from an HD source ..... even the DSTV HD decoder does look better than a lot of the DVD's but some upscaled DVD's can give the decoder a run for the money

If you guys get Dolby Digital Plus in S.A.

I dont think we do - i suspect that it is just regular Dolby Digital ..... but im just guessing so if im wrong im pretty sure someone will soon correct me

[windshear]

There are too many unknown variables in your situation that may or may not be affecting your perception. You may not have the dvp set up correctly in terms of output, either bitstream, pcm etc. You receiver may not be configured correctly for this input in terms of sound format. To compare apples with apples you need to be feeding the same connector type to the receiver, either HDMI or spdif from either of these sources to compare if you notice a difference. That would also require the same movie on the HDPVR as well as on the dvd to do the comparision as subjective comparisions based on memeory are fatally flawed. The other thing to consider is that your receiver maybe he handling the audio differently via HDMI compared to spdif (ironically most "experts" claim to hear a difference and usually in favour of the spdif and not the hdmi). To verify that is simple , just use both these connections from the HDPVR and see if it sounds different.

The other question that begs asking is, if the picture looks better ......... does it sound better    (based on psychology factors)   

[Daniel Weston]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Windshear- you could be correct on your assumptions. I can't get my head around bitstream vs pcm. Its a setting on my Onkyo dvdp but how do you know which is best? Secondly, how would I know if my dvdp upscales?

[windshear]

Ok first things first. What equipment do you have ? Lets start with the model numbers.

[Daniel Weston]

Onkyo DV SP 503 E running into an Onkyo TX SR 705 receiver

[naughty]

how would I know if my dvdp upscales?

for some useful information about upscaling have  a look here

http://hometheater.about.com/od/hometheatervideobasics/qt/dvdvidupscale.htm

you will need either HDMI or DVI outputs to have the player doing the upscaling - as it stands its your TV thats doing any scaling and not the player

I can't get my head around bitstream vs pcm

normally with bitstream you are getting the raw uncoded data sent to the AV receiver to do the digital to analog conversion so this will use the DAC on the AV receiver (in other words the source just passes through the audio stream onto the AV receiver without doing anything to it) while with PCM/LPCM the decoding is done at the source unit and the AV receiver just amplifies/plays the decoded analog file - so this is dependent on whether the player has a better DAC or whether the receiver has a better DAC

if the source medium ie disc states LPCM audio output then what they are telling you is that instead of the regular DTS or Dolby Digital codecs for the audio the audio stream is actually pure uncompressed audio ie more-or less CD quality WAV files

to be honest about the audio aspects though - ive never had the HD channel playing me better sound than the DVD - i use an HDMI connection from the DVD player to the receiver and since my DSTV decoder and receiver experience an HDMI handshake problem i have the HDMI cable from the DSTV decoder going straight to the TV and the audio is connected via a coax/SP/DIF cable - and i have never ever had the DSTV audio coming even close in quality to my DVD player - the rear channels during the DSTV playback are never as loud nor are they as coherent as from the DVD playback - ive always thought this was so because of the transmission medium of the TV content

you have a nice DVD player BTW - you should be getting some good results from it - so yep in terms of picture definitely it still stands to reason that the HD channels HAVE to look better than standard DVD output while upscaled DVD output can bring the results closer to each other

the sound effects and bass response were superior to watching a dvd of similar action content via my Onkyo dvd player. Is there a simple and logical explanation for this?

maybe its just possible that you were playing the TV content louder and this could have led you to believe that it actually sounds better but when you play both at similar volume levels they will sound similar

[Daniel Weston]

Thks for the info Naughty- its helped a lot. The only other thing I've noticed recently is that I get a noticeable flickering around the edges of the various menu boxes when I have the dvdp on but with no disk inserted. Perhaps a sign of the cable on the way out?

[windshear]

Ok from what i see, your DVP is only capable of progressive scan and no upscaling. That will only be possible via its component inputs. Regarding flicker how have you got the player connected for the video. The point is composit is the poorest connection quality wise, then svideo(not sure if your player has it) and then component. Video in the older analogue domain was always interlaced by its very nature so flicker was apparent depending on the source material. Strangely enough i found that using Svideo was the biggest improvement always in my supply chain. There were quite a few players out there that could upscale via component to either 720P or 1080i. In your source depending on how you have configured your Receiver, it may be upscaling or bypassing your signal. If it bypasses then yes your tv will be upscaling to its native resolution. Depending on how its set up, either your tv or your Receiver may do a better job regarding the upscaling, the only way to prove this by doing a comparision which isnt easy if you dont have the right test material. With all this in mind, where are you based, maybe someone could have a look at your set up and give a quick heads up as to what its all doing and optimise the settings.

[Daniel Weston]

The dvdp is connected to the receiver via a digital cable and a video cable. If I recall, somone once told me that I would get a better pic if I used the three different coloured component cables. Still true in my case?

[naughty]

The dvdp is connected to the receiver via a digital cable and a video cable. If I recall, somone once told me that I would get a better pic if I used the three different coloured component cables. Still true in my case?

yes - its still true in most instances where you have those particular choices ie no HDMI present and only the legacy (older) connection options

the single yellow RCA based cable is called composite cable - then theres the S-Video cable which uses a DIN plug that looks like a keyboard or mouse connector (with fewer pins inside) and then theres the three RCA cable mixture of Red, Green and Blue which gives you RGB component cable - out of the three the component is supposed to be the best of the three

[Steerpike]

normally with bitstream you are getting the raw uncoded data sent to the AV receiver to do the digital to analog conversion so this will use the DAC on the AV receiver (in other words the source just passes through the audio stream onto the AV receiver without doing anything to it) while with PCM/LPCM the decoding is done at the source unit and the AV receiver just amplifies/plays the decoded analog file - so this is dependent on whether the player has a better DAC or whether the receiver has a better DAC

Not strictly accurate. PCM (Pulse-code modulation, or Linear Pulse-code modulation) is still a digital data signal, the AV-receiver still has to separate it into audio and subcode, and do the D/A conversion.
"PCM" setting means the DVD-Player is restructuring the data read from the DVD into a format that is compatible with  the Sony/Philips protocol. SPDIF/PCM is as old as 2nd generation CD players, so it cannot encapsulate all the 'new' varieties of surround & hi-res audio. It is an uncompressed protocol, so the Dolby-AC3 has to be uncompressed within the DVD player - then it is sent digitally in a simpler form to the data-separator and D/A converter in the amplifier.

Older D/A converter boxes (standalone or inside receivers) don't understand the new multichannel / hi-res audio protocols, so the 'PCM' option is retained in the DVD player so it can still be used with those pieces of hardware, if you want to use a digital interconnect (co-axial or Toslink/optical)