Author Topic: demagnetisers  (Read 6928 times)

joel

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demagnetisers
« on: October 17, 2007, 04:10:33 pm »
I know that quite a few of you will jump up and down, but I think that these things really work.

I know there is almost no technical reason for them to make any difference (Ampdog I'm sure will view his oppinion and it will be welcome), but are all of us who see/hear a difference swayed by expectations and price.

AVcables will be demonstrating their De-mag amongst other new toys on November 14th (I think) at the Indaba Hotel. 

GearSlave

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2007, 04:21:10 pm »
 ::)

skinnyfat

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2007, 04:24:31 pm »
I don't have experience with these to justifiably 'jump up and down' ;D ;D

What I will say however is that once again this will no doubt raise a few temperatures here :D

What is the typical price range for such a device and based on that the cost to performance debate can start. I've heard SO MANY tweaking stories, devices, tips and snake oils but have seldom heard a tweak that instantly convinces me to buy it . The best tweak I have ever made was the cheapest and easiest - Arranged my room properly ;D and it didn't cost me a cent and gave me the biggest return ITO sound quality.

I'm a known skeptic of these devices and form part of the anti-cable brigade (not the one you're selling G_D ;D ) but would be keen to hear how much of a perceived difference they make, if any
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 04:28:34 pm by skinnyfat »

skinnyfat

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2007, 04:28:59 pm »
::)

and that is all i should've said LOL

Family_Dog

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2007, 05:23:40 pm »
Remember now... our forum name AVForums is an acronym for "Anti-Violence Forums"

Play nicely now!


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Timber_MG

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2007, 05:55:43 pm »
Joel, sorry, but I'm gonna suspect advertising by hype.

If you want to ask such questions, are you prepared to follow up by engaging in a simple blind test? Perhaps start by stating the supposed effect these devices are to have?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 05:57:17 pm by Timber_MG »

Gliding Dutchman

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2007, 09:10:23 pm »
I know that quite a few of you will jump up and down, but I think that these things really work.

I know there is almost no technical reason for them to make any difference (Ampdog I'm sure will view his oppinion and it will be welcome), but are all of us who see/hear a difference swayed by expectations and price.

AVcables will be demonstrating their De-mag amongst other new toys on November 14th (I think) at the Indaba Hotel. 

Indeed Joel - remember our discussion about why the DeMag unit actually works...

Guys!! Not to be otherwise but come and hear for yourselfs!! The 14th November @ the Indaba Hotel - entrance free!

I was skeptical but were gobsmacked when the unit were demonstarted!!

Dewald (not GD this time!)

Timber_MG

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2007, 09:33:21 pm »
@GD: please make a claim as to how this device is employed to make a difference you claim and of what nature these are and if they are ill-founded what attempts people have done to take th expectation out of the equation. Thus far I hear only hype and little else. Does one take the DeMag orally like Whiskey, does one apply it to a CD like felt-tipped pen, does one attach it to a cable like a ferrite bead?

Or is it all-together different like a shakti stone to be placed decoratively on hifi equipment?

Ampdog

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2007, 02:05:38 am »
In "Letters", AVSA June 2006, following on previous correspondence, a technician employed by one of the manufacturers of such a device, Bedini, responded to that correspondence. The patent for the device was cited, and in the following issue of AVSA "Letters", two engineers (both experts in the field) published as a letter a brief summation of an in-depth examination of this patent.

Firstly, they found not an iota of a basis for any of the claims contained in the patent document; in fact, it was based on the rediculous. (I must remind that a patent does not necessarily guarantee that a device will work, it only prevents others from using the principles outlined therein for similar work.) In comparison the Bedini "expert" was more belligirent than factual, and no further explanation was given, although in fairness it must be mentioned that the correspondence was terminated. (It is unknown whether such further reaction resulted, or whether in fact the patent analysis was even presented to Bedini.)

The above situation is not uncommon. (It was also inter alia experienced regarding claims and patent contents of certain Audio-Quest products.) One could stop there: If a manufacturer of a scientific device  is proved to be ignorant of the basic science pertaining to his product to such an extent, where does one go from there? In defense it is often claimed that "these principles are not yet fully understood" - but again, referring to principles that are just about as well understood as Ohms Law! To be kind, I have yet to see an explanation regarding such devices that does not reveal gross ignorance of science/electronics on the part of the designer - and I have been concerned with a few in my professional life!

I started in this fashion to illustrate a significant general problem. Everything in hi-fi (in this case) is based on well-defined electronic or materials property principles, mostly not very complicated to the informed. How with any reason is one supposed to glibly accept the "merits" of a product, when the designer's every utterence shows that he has no idea even of basic electronics, let alone how his device is supposed to work? (Yes, OK, those who are waiting: Include exotic cables here as well - there; I have said it.)

There is absolutely no effect that any magnetic device can have on a CD or a vinyl record (to mention the other medium for which there suddenly emerged a wonder-cure), because they contain no magnetically susceptible particles. One might as well argue that the law of gravity does not exist. Scientists do not know everything, but they know certain things.

To stay brief, I did not expound on a further problem with these devices: The "information" on the relevant media is a fixed record of digits or grooves, which cannot be cleaned, modified, purified, rectified, glorified, sanctified or whatever by any device. One might as well claim to improve written prose by sweeping something over a page of print. (I am obviously not talking about dirt in a record groove; that did not fall under the claims.)

Alternately, with Joel's observations in an earlier edition of AVSA regarding hearing tests that he did at the time, I cannot find any fault (if those were read by anyone here). They were his honest personal experiences, he even expressed some doubt, and he did not try to baffle us with - you-know-what. That I can respect. The reaction of the particular manufacturer I cannot. Science is neither democratic nor proved by arrogance. I would like to conclude with a vaguely relevant expression by the brilliant Mark Twain:
     
"Truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; truth does not have that limitation."

 Edit: Typo     
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 02:09:48 am by Ampdog »
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Hi-Phibian

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2007, 04:29:30 am »
This keeps popping up all over the place.
I agree that the mnf reply in AVSA was poor, I also think they have no clue why the device might make a difference.
Everyone who looks at this thing is looking in the wrong place imo for the reason for its perceived difference. (no, id o not mean in the mind)
I use an old tape head demagnetiser on CDs and it certaily makes a worthwhile improvement to treat a CD this way. Bulk tape erasers are said to be good too. The first time a disc is treated the difference is more marked, less as it appears the "negative" build up that is "demagnetised" is slowly built up after several plays.

I do think it is quite funny how someone once upon a time degaussed a CD by accident, heard a difference and built a suitasble device to degaus CDs with...
The minute magnetic particles in for eg the paint on CDs are quoted as being the parts degaussed and how the device achieves this is covered in the patent.
However nothing useful is written on what possible effect this may have. I kind of love watching this one as I think the reason is not that hard to find but one needs to look past the mere basics of CD operation.

Byrd

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2007, 07:10:22 am »
Will it work on my PC based system?

 ::)
Dead men tell no tales, and dead horses tell no lies.

Timber_MG

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2007, 07:36:25 am »
Even if a CD platter were iron (not Al, a non-ferrous metal) and its paint contained organic ferrous compounds (which I doubt) the mechanism of retrieving data (and don't forget that it is buffered too) is wholly unaffected.

Are they suggesting that the spinning disc induces a signal on the output? Well put a scope to it and measure what happens.

In all fairness Jeandre (presumably) has a right to sell his kit, but what is on offer on that weekend other than demagnetisers?

DRNB

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2007, 07:51:56 am »
Quote
In all fairness Jeandre (presumably) has a right to sell his kit, but what is on offer on that weekend other than demagnetisers?

Totally agree with you Martin.
It is indeed Jeandre that is selling them, but he also gonna have a new SACD player on display that weekend ( the make escaped me now) which they claim to be the very best thing since sliced bread ( at a slightly higher cost though). i think you should be able to get more info on their website www.avcables.co.za.

"There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out." (Russian Proverb)

Gliding Dutchman

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2007, 08:22:41 am »
@GD: please make a claim as to how this device is employed to make a difference you claim and of what nature these are and if they are ill-founded what attempts people have done to take th expectation out of the equation. Thus far I hear only hype and little else. Does one take the DeMag orally like Whiskey, does one apply it to a CD like felt-tipped pen, does one attach it to a cable like a ferrite bead?

Or is it all-together different like a shakti stone to be placed decoratively on hifi equipment?

TMG,

I would not go and state that the DeMag is the Alpha & Omega of hi-fi... no! But one thing I can tell you it that it did have a positive impact of how the record and/or cd were played back sonically. A shock of awe whent through the crowd that night - including skeptics. There were no hype, nor any brainwashing. Jandre demoed the "thing" and that is what were observed. Plain and simple as that. I'd suggest you come to the evening. Besides the DeMag (not being the main attraction) there will be Rega products, EMM Labs SACD player, audiophile records and cd/sacd's, 2nd hand vinyl, a cash bar, snacks, etc... and the best part will be that us guys (and gals) can chat to eachother face-to-face...

Dewald

Byrd

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Re: demagnetisers
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2007, 08:36:51 am »
I think inviting Timber is just asking for kak ;)

If you do go Timber, remember your loudhaler :D
Dead men tell no tales, and dead horses tell no lies.