The great cable debate

[Ampdog]

I have so far stayed out of this; also, I was away for a fortnight or so. But now perhaps a few points are permitted?

Hennie,
Youre obviously on top of electronics (an EE?), but I am not sure that you have shown that different mains cables make a difference (pardon if I recall incorrectly; I read in a hurry.) What I heard you say was that the way one goes about connecting equipment to the mains is significant - obviously, amen! You also did say that you are not into molecular construction and all those awesome terms bandied about. But the irritating point is with many of us, that mains cable A makes a dramatic (is there no other adjective in the audio dictionary?) difference compared to mains cable B (A naturally being more expensive than B, etc. ad nausiam).

Other comments:

Blind testing: This can be as bluffing as unobjective tests! The order in which things are experienced, just to mention one of a host of factors! The matter is not simple .... but there is one "simple" test, and when that fails, people must explain to me why I should not be sceptical.

That is when several components (shall we say) are compared by whatever audience, using as much time as they want, and they honestly (accepted) claim to hear a difference when they can see what they are dealing with. Then, when a moment later the same audience in the same locale in the same seats when the same components are run, suddenly looses that ability when they no longer know what they are listening too. I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how to get out of this one. I do not expect an early answer.

GD, regarding your reference to di-electric,
Again, sorry friend. Di-electric (assuming any half decent stuff) do not play a role in audio cable. The frequency is way too low; basic physics simply preclude that - this is easily shown. All I can say to those who swear to have heard an effect - I cannot say that you were mistaken; I was not present when you had the experience. But you will have to look elsewhere for the explanation. Similarly regarding this overworked notion of di-electric absorption/polarization/retention. Normal audio frequency/impedances are too low. I did work on this in spectrum analyser charge storage - it does become a major pain-in-the..., but only at impedances of 10 (power many) megohm. [try work at isolation of 10(power 17) ohms, then we can talk again.] But as far as I know audio stuff feeds audio stuff at no more than a few k.ohm output impedance. I dont even think of loudspeaker cable in this regard.

I always reiterate: Nobody said cables do not make a difference per se. We are limiting ourselves here to audio.

Other than that, I am getting out of the kitchen for now! Let the waiter bring the food to more comfortable regions.

[Hennie]

Ampdog,

I'm sure you read that in a hurry – please don't do that. You won't catch me using terms like “dramatic differences” with regard to power, interconnect and speaker wire.  I tried to highlight flaws in the often used “kilometres of Escom wire” argument. My position is that from a theoretical and practical point of view mains cables may make a difference. Likewise, due to earthing and noise current issues, interconnects may make a difference. No, I have not proven anything, but that was not my goal. “May” or "can" does not equate to “Do”.

Dielectric absorption (DA) exists even at DC. Don't confuse dielectric absorption with dissipation factor (DF) as was the case on the Audioholics forum in an argument to dismiss cable claims (rectified since). The two are related but not the same. DA it is a known effect in sample and hold circuits (DC or close to DC but high impedance) and in the power transmission industry (50Hz).

Instead of looking at frequency I would rather look at the electrical field strength in the insulator as a percentage of the insulator's breakdown electrical field strength and the impedances as you correctly point out. That said, this is not an argument in favour of expensive cables. In fact I'm quite disappointed when I meet an audiophile and the first question is “What cables are you using” instead of “How's your acoustics?”.

[Ampdog]

Hennie,

I think there is a misunderstanding here, and for any part of mine in it I apologise.

I did not accuse you of (mis)using adjectives - on the contrary. I was trying to indicate that what you said regarding mains cables was in fact true, but that that was not part of the irritating aspect of the mains cable debate. (I was referring to your post #17, which in turn was a response to Joel's post #13 - I am not quoting the lot here in the interest of brevity.) The irritating factor is claims of superiority based on other factors than those high-lighted by you - better conductivity, lower inductance, capacitance and who knows what, and adjectives used in promotion (not by you). Those claims are usually made in isolation, not based on systems improvement. This is what I regularly have to read, and it is in this respect that the "miles of Escom wire" phrase applies. Indeed "may" or "can" does not equate to "do" - but "do" is what the superior cable brigade mostly advocates.

Also, I would have thought that it was clear from my paragraph 4 that I do know what DA is. Again (not to write a thesis here), explanations given by manufacturers as to the superiority of their products mostly apply closer to the GHz region. Has DA been shown to cause distortion of audio signals .... not that I have seen. I have seen at least one technically well-researched series on capacitors showing that it does not occur, at least to the extent of audibly affecting audio.

I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph.

[Ampdog]

Er ... sorry 

Did I do (say) anything to suddenly kill this thread stone-dead??

But the other night I cut some pretty decent interconnects shorter to fit onto the DIN output plug of someone's control unit ....

NO SCREEN INSIDE!! A miserable thinnnn red wire flanked by some bare stranded copper as the earth. How does one know whether any interconnect is in fact a screened cable? Anyone willing to cut open his R80/meter beauties?

I am done with fancy interconnects "made for audio" (sic). I am going to Communica or wherever they have decent (visible) screened wire. RG58-U or RG59, but those are a bit thick for the above purpose. There is nice 3,5mm screened wire around. Capacitance, inductance etc. way beyond any audio influence (measured).

[Hi-Phibian]

For DIN plugs you could use (2 runs for stereo) RG179, nice and thin, Teflon, Silver Plated Copper, no copper clad steel as found on some dodgy RG59 etc, sound is vivid, possibly just what one needs with some vintage gear using DIN.

Or, I have some sexy 4 core Cardas copper litz with screen (allowing a spuedo balanced or telescopic screen on the DIN interconnect)  but pricing and "spec" will probably put that one in to a no go area for cable sceptics....

There are also some 4 core Mic cables but they are somewhat thicker then the plastic DIN plug sleeve allows but if it is a Neutrik or Deltron plug it should work.

[Ampdog]

I asked for that!

Many thanks Croak! I will keep it in mind; also appreciate the -er- respectable tone of your reply. I should really come and visit you; just a little busy at present (apart from coughing/sniffing at present - och!).