Author Topic: The great cable debate  (Read 11456 times)

GearSlave

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2007, 03:43:08 pm »
Now who thinks that changing power cables makes a difference?

I certainly do.

Then you must've heard the argument that dictates this as a silly excersize as all of your house wiring is still standard?

Cleansound

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2007, 03:49:07 pm »

Heinz at Absolute Sound is fond of saying that if you hear a difference good, but if you dont, then dont buy the cables.
The question is just how much of a difference and if the price warrants the gains made?


Now who thinks that changing power cables makes a difference?

I certainly do.
[/quote]

That's why we love Heinz.
Power cables ? a difference....................... ??? ??? ???



Of course they do,I have heard it myself,but i think it will be more audible in a high resolution system.

Hennie

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2007, 05:20:54 pm »
Now who thinks that changing power cables makes a difference?

I certainly do.

I hear what Joel says. I come from an electrical / electronic system integration environment so please read what follows in that context:

IME some measures taken by some power cable manufacturers are indeed valid (but not all). Honestly designed aftermarket power cables aim to reduce the noise currents flowing between closely spaced pieces of equipment. These noise currents are induced due to stray capacitances, mutual inductances etc between boxes and may contaminate signals via the signal return wire in unbalanced equipment. Technical people, please draw an equivalent small signal circuit diagram with all parasitic effects included if you struggle with this concept.

Transformer balancing is the only method to completely eliminate this problem. Quasi-balanced (semiconductor circuits) are still be somewhat prone to noise currents with excessive radio frequency content.

I have measured these noise currents many times and they have frustrated me many times. Mixed signal digital and analogue setups are more prone to this especially with many boxes in close proximity.

If you are technical and understand the problem you will also see that the often quoted "miles of Escom wire" argument is really irrelevant.

I admit that I have never established the need for special power cables in a home environment. From above mentioned work experience (12 bit environment) it is not hard to imagine that noise currents may sometimes be a problem in a top flight home setup.

If an aftermarket power cord just adds gold plating to rip the customer off leave it alone and make your own. There are a number of DIY designs on the net, most of which employ sound principles.

Also, I WILL NEVER use the cheap standard interconnect supplied with equipment (the type where the screen is also the signal return or earth). Because, if the screen is effective, it will induce a noise voltage in series with you equipment's own signal. Interconnects with separate signal and signal return wires, covered by a screen connected at one end to the signal return wire are cheap enough and do work better, That is a technique often used in a system or instrumentation integration environment for connecting unbalanced signals. I have done it many times to reduce noise and EMI sensitivity. BTW don't mock directional cables, this last design feature is the main reason why better interconnects are marked with a directional arrow. It isn't the copper that is directional, it is just the earthing scheme...

Related:

WARNING: Do the following only if you are qualified to work with electrical equipment and know how to avoid electrical shock. If not, ask a competent technician or engineer to help you.

You can reduce noise currents with most double insulated equipment boxes (Jap and far eastern goods without an earth wire in the mains cable) by experimenting. With the equipment plugged in, measure the voltage between the equipment's signal return (eg on an output connector) and your mains earth (at the plug your equipment is plugged into) preferably with a scope. Swap the live and neutral around. Measure again. Keep the mains connection that gives you the lowest voltage. Do that with all your equipment. If you now connect your equipment less noise current will flow in the signal return wire between equipment. Be concerned if you see too much RF noise in the scope measurement. Semi-conductor circuits do no like RF contamination and RF filtering fails at some point. Maybe you need  good aftermarket power cords ......

GearSlave

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2007, 06:51:25 am »
Hi Hennie,

Thanks for your in-depth insight. Just for the non technical members, I do think that we must put this in perspective a little.

Quote
Honestly designed aftermarket power cables aim to reduce the noise currents flowing between closely spaced pieces of equipment.

Agreed, but this cable should be constructed from standard materials and based on sound and well understood principles. Boutique and flavour of the month composites should not be flaunted as the reason for the improvement, but the fact that the manufacturer used technically accepted methods to create results should be submitted as support. OFC, triple shielded power cable with solid gold connectors costing R5k does not constitute a result, but line filters and thick enough mechanically sound cable does. Hence my comment earlier.

Quote
These noise currents are induced due to stray capacitances, mutual inductances etc between boxes and may contaminate signals via the signal return wire in unbalanced equipment. Technical people, please draw an equivalent small signal circuit diagram with all parasitic effects included if you struggle with this concept.

Agreed again, but you don't need a R5k cable to achieve that. This can be done for very little, even considering mid-man markups.

Quote
Transformer balancing is the only method to completely eliminate this problem. Quasi-balanced (semiconductor circuits) are still be somewhat prone to noise currents with excessive radio frequency content.

I'm snipping here, as your post further refers to cables in the analogue chain and this I'm not refuting. Again, boutique cables are not required here, but 'directional' cables are suggested for certain configurations. Again, as you did rightly state, this cable is directional because of the wiring configuration, not because of some special property of copper.

Quote
If you are technical and understand the problem you will also see that the often quoted "miles of Escom wire" argument is really irrelevant.

It is not irrelevant if the power cable in question is flaunted for it's composites rather than being based on sound construction principals.

Quote
I admit that I have never established the need for special power cables in a home environment. From above mentioned work experience (12 bit environment) it is not hard to imagine that noise currents may sometimes be a problem in a top flight home setup.

I believe that a top flight system should incorporate all the sound principles in the unit and should not be affected by external measures like noise in power lines. These things are curable and for very little money.

Quote
If an aftermarket power cord just adds gold plating to rip the customer off leave it alone and make your own. There are a number of DIY designs on the net, most of which employ sound principles.

My point above. But how does Joe-soap know the difference?! I'm making a gross generalization here, but do you honestly think a properly constructed power cable should cost anything over R500? 

Quote
Also, I WILL NEVER use the cheap standard interconnect supplied with equipment (the type where the screen is also the signal return or earth). Because, if the screen is effective, it will induce a noise voltage in series with you equipment's own signal. Interconnects with separate signal and signal return wires, covered by a screen connected at one end to the signal return wire are cheap enough and do work better, That is a technique often used in a system or instrumentation integration environment for connecting unbalanced signals. I have done it many times to reduce noise and EMI sensitivity. BTW don't mock directional cables, this last design feature is the main reason why better interconnects are marked with a directional arrow. It isn't the copper that is directional, it is just the earthing scheme...

Related:

WARNING: Do the following only if you are qualified to work with electrical equipment and know how to avoid electrical shock. If not, ask a competent technician or engineer to help you.

You can reduce noise currents with most double insulated equipment boxes (Jap and far eastern goods without an earth wire in the mains cable) by experimenting. With the equipment plugged in, measure the voltage between the equipment's signal return (eg on an output connector) and your mains earth (at the plug your equipment is plugged into) preferably with a scope. Swap the live and neutral around. Measure again. Keep the mains connection that gives you the lowest voltage. Do that with all your equipment. If you now connect your equipment less noise current will flow in the signal return wire between equipment. Be concerned if you see too much RF noise in the scope measurement. Semi-conductor circuits do no like RF contamination and RF filtering fails at some point. Maybe you need  good aftermarket power cords ......


Agreed, but please take this last sentence in context based on the above.

Johan

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2007, 07:03:16 am »
@ Hennie

Totally agree with you there!! I also tend to make up my own interconnects using decent coax (rg58) and speaker cable - i don't believe in spending rediculus amounts of cash on a cable that looks pretty.


Oh yes - some exspensive cable makes a difference but you'll find that those exspensive cables are none better that the cable you can get from a electrical/electronics supplier.


Timber_MG

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2007, 08:11:06 am »
A good high quality cable makes a system appear much more professional and is generally much nicer to handle (within reason, I like my welding cable outside the home, which is where trailing cable lives :)

As to sound...I am of the belief that the expectation of the cable far exceeds the actual difference. I for one have heard differences, until the same test was repeated in blind...an experience that has changed my opinion of cables for ever.

Timber_MG

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2007, 08:25:40 am »
As to the price: Cable is amongst some of the most heavily marked up accessories and purpusefully left out of many sales discussions until the end. Electrical wholesalers will supply you with reasonably nice budget cable for speaker cable use. If you need really good (soft pliable) sheaths look at pro-sound cable suppliers becasue they move more volume and there is less smoke and mirrors around their product and thus the cost is in relation to the actual value.

To terminate use a nice crimping tool (not long nose pliers) and your preferred flavour of termination, be it spade, pin or what not. US sources are quite affordable and a cable kit and a decent cable from the likes of an electrical wholesaler (some will even provide you with nylon braid which can be bound off nicely with cleanly cut shrink tubing at the ends of the cabe) comes in well within budget of even "budget" boutique cable.

I am quite partial to Speakon, Neutrik if the budget alows or just plain chinese copies work well too mostly becasue I bi-amp the majority of my speakers. If I need to go to traditional connectors I just use a simple female connector with bare-ends.

Shonver

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2007, 02:28:45 pm »
I believe that a top flight system should incorporate all the sound principles in the unit and should not be affected by external measures like noise in power lines.

Now this is my main gripe: kilobuck equipment should not need special accessories to make it sound good. Cables need just to be good enough. The fact that the performance of some equipment can be "improved" by using special cables of dubious quality is a clear indication of poorly-designed electronics.
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jamster

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2007, 02:48:19 pm »
Indeed - cables do sound different from eachother. The keyword here: DIELECTRIC

I have a bunch of ANTI-CABLE speaker cable from the States to review. These you should see: www.anticables.com/

GD

I would love to give these a listen - any chance of getting hold of them??


Gliding Dutchman

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2007, 03:49:02 pm »
I would love to give these a listen - any chance of getting hold of them??



Well... we can see after I did the review. I dont think I'll keep em.

Dewald

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2007, 09:29:59 am »
Well... we can see after I did the review. I dont think I'll keep em.

Will you be advertising them on our Classifieds again? ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sorry Dewald, I could not resist ;)
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Gliding Dutchman

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2007, 09:45:56 am »
Will you be advertising them on our Classifieds again? ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sorry Dewald, I could not resist ;)

Dont start with that please!! I am serious...

Viagara

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2007, 09:54:59 am »
Dont start with that please!! I am serious...

Come now, what happened to the sense of humor?

I have a plaque on my desk which says "Don't forget rule number 6". Rule number 6 is "Don't take yourself so damn seriously!"

Based on the pics on their website, those anti-cables do look interesting though.
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Gliding Dutchman

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2007, 10:02:21 am »
Come now, what happened to the sense of humor?

I have a plaque on my desk which says "Don't forget rule number 6". Rule number 6 is "Don't take yourself so damn seriously!"

Based on the pics on their website, those anti-cables do look interesting though.

Sorry - but you do realise that I ended up losing a load of money with those blasted XLR interconnects...  :'(  :'(


Viagara

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Re: The great cable debate
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2007, 10:05:08 am »
Sorry - but you do realise that I ended up losing a load of money with those blasted XLR interconnects...  :'(  :'(



No problem, I understand that.
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