Group tests

[skinnyfat]

I have noticed that you guys don't do many of these. Is there any particular reason for this or is it a case of 'All been done before" ?

[Andrew]

Hi Skinny, if you're referring to, for example, group tests on a selection of AV receivers/amplifiers/etc., the rare occurrence of such features is generally because it's a logistical nightmare to be able to get a set number of similarly priced/specced items, to then set them up in the listening room, and run through a battery of tests. We regularly struggle to get equipment in for decent enough periods of review time as it is, so the effort in getting a group test set up is quite something! And then when the test is printed, we quite often get complaints that certain brands weren't reviewed! Sometimes a 'group' test / feature takes place because out of the blue we get saddled with a whole bunch of similar products and it doesn't make sense to do three or four separate reviews - we've got a feature on power products coming up soon, because of such a happening.

[skinnyfat]

You would think the dealers/agents would let you have longer time to review their products and thus promote the sale of them. Unless they scared of what you might find

[Andrew]

   I think the problem is often that they don't bring in enormous amounts of the equipment - especially the higher-end stuff - so quite often we'll have the equipment arrive only to have them ask us to speed up the review because it's been sold.

[Timber_MG]

Unfortunately many people in this Country bring in brands on a small scale, mark the kit up quite heavily and minimize their risk by not keeping equipment on hand. However if a distributor is not prepared to cater for service, in this day and age they must no longer be prepared for consumers willing to buy electronics equipment at 2x the price and not at least considder bringing the kit in from elsewhere and taking the service risk on their own shoulders...

Unfortunately SA consumers do not demand service and allow dealers and distributors to get away with murder...and it is not restricted to audio or electronics, have a look at what you can get in the states and factor in even heavy shipping costs and 110v transformers if needed...for instance with my CNC router I am saving more than 1/2 the cost on my components down only to buying in the States and Europe and not from the local distributors...

[Viagara]

There could also be the other side of the coin. The SA market is small compare to the UK and US markets where you have definite fans of specific brands and to the majority of them it does not matter if a group review finds that product X is better than product Y because of the weaknesses of product X.

I think in SA a bad(or less than good) review could have a bigger impact of sales of a specific brand. I do not envy the reviewers of AVSA as I think often they may feel obliged to highlight the good points of a product and play down the bad points. I am not saying that this is the case, but what would the impact be for instance if a Yamaha product gets a bad review in AVSA? Would Balanced Audio readily submit another product knowing that their sales could be affected negatively?

[skinnyfat]

I am not saying that this is the case, but what would the impact be for instance if a Yamaha product gets a bad review in AVSA? Would Balanced Audio readily submit another product knowing that their sales could be affected negatively?

Not to mention the INSANE mark up the retailers put on the kit (Abe you know what I paid for my Yammy brand new). This is what is stunting the growth of AV in SA in much the same way Telkom is turning broadband into nothing more than a fart in a can in SA ATM

[Viagara]

Not to mention the INSANE mark up the retailers put on the kit (Abe you know what I paid for my Yammy brand new). This is what is stunting the growth of AV in SA in much the same way Telkom is turning broadband into nothing more than a fart in a can in SA ATM

That is true of many retailers, but there are some who don't. A company that comes to mind is Sony and the pricing of their ES AVRs which are comparatively much cheaper than other brands when compared to UK prices. For example:

Sony 1200ES - R 4199 - £299.95
Sony 5200ES - R 9900 - £699.95
Denon 1507   - R 4695 - £199.95
CA 540R        - R 5990 - £269.95
CA 640R        - R 10 990 - £599.95

[skinnyfat]

That is true of many retailers, but there are some who don't. A company that comes to mind is Sony and the pricing of their ES AVRs which are comparatively much cheaper than other brands when compared to UK prices. For example:

Sony 1200ES - R 4199 - £299.95
Sony 5200ES - R 9900 - £699.95
Denon 1507   - R 4695 - £199.95
CA 540R        - R 5990 - £269.95
CA 640R        - R 10 990 - £599.95

This is only due to the fact that Sony has a MUCH bigger market presence in SA than say Denon or CA.

Look at the market Yamaha has here, not only in audio but automotive and musical instruments - Surely Bidvest could afford to ensure lower retail pricing ?? but then they've already amde their pennies and paid their board members so why worry about Mr Joe Public ??

[Ampdog]

Comparative (blind) tests properly done are a real chore.There must be many repetitions, proper switch-over, etc. etc. Many people think a blind test is simply ABX or any of the other variations done once or twice. When a panel has to be assembled as well ......

May I take time for a small illustration. While at the CSIR we conducted a simple experiment of coin tossing (no, not in working time!) Partakers had to guess how the coin would land, which gave two sets of info: How the coin actually landed and how often a person's guess would be right. We did this well over 100 times; the result was an expected quite close to "50-50" one.

BUT: During the test run a coin fell same side up by as many as 5 consecutive times. Furthermore, someone would guess correctly/incorrectly as many as 8 consecutive times. Think then, if these occurrences took place at the beginning (as they well might have done). One could have say 5 consecutive instances of "correct guessing". If that constituted the whole test, there would have been dead certainty that product A was the best - 5 out of 5; pretty conclusive! Yet the whole test illustrated a 50-50 expected result, but only after many "runs". It is not statistics that lie, it is their incorrect interpretation by human beings.

[Byrd]

Ampdog, I don't think that the coin analogy can be applied to reviewing equipment as with the coin flipping it is purely chance. With reviewing of equipment (unless you are saying they all sound identical?) there is an element of evaluation involved. This is not guessing

[GearSlave]

Ja, but what Ampdog is implying is that - should there be no difference - the participants should feel obliged to pick one, in effect, guessing. It helps if the participants have no idea what kit is lined up for auditioning. If they do know what kit is being auditioned and they cannot tell the difference, they would pick the more expensive one (mostly). This comes down to peer pressure, ego or any other number of psychological anomalies that the participants might be experiencing at the time.

I think Ampdog's analogy is quite valid.

[Hi-Phibian]

Off topic but....WRT INSANE margins made by dealers, I think this is a not so well researched comment. Sadly, we do pay a premium for many products here in SA but there are reasons for that which are less greedy then one may think.
The % margins worked on by dealers in SA is totally in line with that of other territories in the world. The cost price these dealers pay to their distributors is typically higher on a ROE basis then a dealer might pay abroad, for this there are reasons.

What often is ignored are a few factors:

Many products still incur import duties up to 15%, a private import through the post may get past this by accident.
SA is one of the most expensive destinations to ship to and insurance costs high (we have such a good reputation many (on line) sellers abroad refuse to ship to us).
The size of our market does not always allow for huge shipments and the associated benefits in cost on shipping, never mind manufacturer price break points.
VAT @ 14%, not applicable to US based prices for eg.
Shipping within South Africa is expensive to do securely adding to the distributors costs.

At the end of the day most distributors will look at their total landed cost as their base price on which they seek a return on investment needed to keep shareholders happy after paying the usual salaries and rentals etc etc The higher shipping and duty gets put in to this base price and it obviously compounds.

WRT product like Sony ES being well priced in comparison I think it has to do more with Sony's lower level of acceptance as a premium brand in SA (Have a look at Nokia vs Sony Ericsson mobile phone prices to see what effect this can have) and perhaps the vast quantities of other Sony products it shares shipping costs with. The outlets typically selling Sony in SA are also less specialist and sell a variety of stack em high sell em low mass products and employ less specialised (more affordable) staff that spend less time per sales Rand value then specialist stores would with a client. They also have less if any demo space, any idea of the rate per square metre for retail space of say 100 squares in a premier shopping centre?
The value added by a specialist dealer is subjective but I would suggest one focusses on value rather then price. If you feel the dealer you speak to is not knowledgeable or helpful enough, seek another. You will pay a similar price but get more from the better dealer and the benefit of a well balanced system will stay with you for a long time.

Those who feel comfortable buying based on reviews and not auditions, do not require dealer advice of any kind may be able to do better on price by buying online abroad from a discounter and doing a private import with its associated risks. It would however be unfair to compare this to a standard brick and mortar retail transaction that involves premier store space and demo facilities and product, knowledgeable staff and stock on hand. Worst would be to use that dealer for your evaluation and audition with the intention of direct import/discounter purchase.

I just feel this price thing is often directed at the wrong "culprits". Nobody seems to moan about the ROE based low cost of land or property here in SA vs UK or US for eg.... Each territory has its pros
and cons.

Rant over....

[Ampdog]

Byrd2,

Yes, I must apologise. On rereading I found that I have misinterpreted group tests as referring to groups of listeners, not equipment - my error.

My argument is still to be kept in mind in testing in general, but not as I put it.

[skinnyfat]

The % margins worked on by dealers in SA is totally in line with that of other territories in the world.

Does this make it acceptable ?  I have first-hand knowledge of what RETAILERS pay for a certain well known brand. This price includes any said costs incurred by shipping, insurance exchange rate and retailing a product for more more than twice than what they are paying for it is a bitter pill to swallow for the consumer. Thats the problem in SA there are too many factors that retailers can use to blame their inflated prices on. BULL, Its like broadband, why should we pay for local bandwidth when it is nothing more than a giant WAN and no international bandwidth needs to be purchased. The public just accepts and soaks up the bullsh1t fed to them by the service providers/retailers