Question on reviewing / suggestion

[Dolby]

Hi,

Excuse my relativly newbie type question.

If you're testing a CD player or component that you comment is particulaly bright or dull or anything, how do you know it's not the partnering equipment effecting the sound? There are up to 5 other compoments (amplifiers, preamplifiers, cables etc). How do you know that each of these effects sound negativly or positivly?

Also, do you have the same amplifiers (high end) for everything you test, so that low end CD players may sound better as they're partnered with Krell and not the same calibre equipment? Shouldn't a R5000 component be tested with other R5000 components?

Lastly why not put some vital specs under a 'summary page' ... ? Dimentions, wattage, weight, ohms etc? I've seen the suggestion before and thought it'd be excellent, but nothing was ever done?

Thank you

[Gliding Dutchman]

A review must know his "personal" system rather well and on that basis is able to judge other components accordingly...

Source components and amplifiers are easy to "judge" compared to speakers.

It is certainly not an easy task and one must be able to listen "beyond" the music or sound-track - tiny nuances... you also must have a certain "feel" for frequency response. 

That is where referencing comes in. Firstly I feel that you must know how an instrument sound "unplugged". My personal reference is the piano. I play piano and too the effort to explore the mechanics and sound of this wonderful instrument. Secondly one needs a reference system that you're truly fimiliar with. You'll then be able to "review" any given component within the system and draw a clear conclusion.

You can go and bang together a system of "similar" priced gear just to audition a CD player that fits into that specific catergory.

It is a tricky "job" indeed... but when you know "how" and "what" it is quite easy to even judge the sound of two different cables.

I have my fire-protection-suit on... 

GD

[skinnyfat]

I think that reviewing AV kit must be a daunting task purely due to the subjectiveness of the hobby. I know we frequently critisize reviewers for being biased etc etc but I feel you need to use a review as a guidline and general overview of the kit in question - particularily if you are possibly going to be buying or thinking of buying the item in question.

This is just my VERY much abridged opinion and i may expand upon it if required

[Shonver]

I believe that Dolby was directing his suggestions at AVSA staff, and questioning how they do things. Also, an improvement suggestion was thrown in for good measure...

[Dolby]

I was directing it at the staff ... apologies for the confusion.

Also wasn't knocking a review or a reviewers job - I am really interested. The reason is that if I listen my own system, I can pick on the fact that at time it's harsh with sibilence on the 's'. However, is this the CD recording? The CD player that isn't as uptodate as some of the other equipment? The amplifier which is only budget? Or the speakers which aren't a well known brand? It was purely a question.

The next question comes from the fact that I once went to purchase a R3,000.00 CD player - linked to a R20,000 Krell power amplifier and R50,000.00 Wilson Benesch speakers. I thought if one does test a CD player in this league, then perhaps components should possibly be of a similar standard?

The last question is simply because I find it a little easier comparing etc if there was a summaries box, similar to CAR magazine. I don't need to read the review for a certain vital spec, such as power etc

[Shonver]

if I listen my own system, I can pick on the fact that at time it's harsh with sibilence on the 's'. However, is this the CD recording? The CD player that isn't as uptodate as some of the other equipment? The amplifier which is only budget? Or the speakers which aren't a well known brand? It was purely a question.

Each component in the chain will affect the sound, the most overlooked component being the actual listening environment and its acoustics. Apart from this, the component that offers the biggest opportunity for sound improvement is the loudspeaker. However, the amount of difference that a loudspeaker upgrade makes really depends on what level you are starting at. There are big gains to be had if starting from budget. I have not really had problems with sibilance in loudspeakers that pretend to be of good quality, even at entry level. Brand identity can be a guideline here, although it is no guarantee. To illustrate:

Many years ago a friend bought a music centre made by a certain unknown company that we today know as LG (though it was a different name then)*. He had ignored my advice of buying NAD components matched to the hi-fi speaker of the day (although he could undoubtedly afford them, he could not understand why they cost so much more). When I heard his music centre, I had to admit that it indeed sounded significantly better than I had predicted...

To finally answer your question, the way to find the weak(est) link in your system is to progressively swap out each component until the culprit is revealed, starting with the most suspicious. Right now, you can try and see if pushing your speakers right up against the rear wall reduces any of the harshness.

The next question comes from the fact that I once went to purchase a R3,000.00 CD player - linked to a R20,000 Krell power amplifier and R50,000.00 Wilson Benesch speakers. I thought if one does test a CD player in this league, then perhaps components should possibly be of a similar standard?

Maybe. It is easier to spot shortcomings in front end equipment if the rest of the system is of higher quality. The question is, though: would those shortcomings be noticeable in a system of similar value?

The last question is simply because I find it a little easier comparing etc if there was a summaries box, similar to CAR magazine. I don't need to read the review for a certain vital spec, such as power etc

AVSA did once have a little summary block that included "Also try..." that listed other equipment competing in the same bracket. I must say, though, that specifications (unless we are talking about features) have limited value. Your actual experience with the component is much more important, so let your ears be the judge. That being said, we do buy magazines for the purpose of getting informed guidance/opinion on where to start in our search.

*Edit: Ah, now I recall: it was Goldstar

[Andrew]

Hi Dolby,

Sorry for the delay. I took leave on Friday, else I'd have forwarded your question onto the reviewers. Please give me until Tuesday, when most of the reviewers should be back, and I should have feedback for you. A good question, and thanks for posting it!

Also, as per your suggestion - read our magazine!    We actually have, since starting the new look version of AVSA, included what we refer to as a Vital Stats panel, which includes basic info that I think should cover your query? We went this route as we felt that too much of the review copy was 'wasted' on specifying these stats.

If you get the chance, take a look and let me know if this is what you were looking for?

Andrew.

[jamster]

Hi,

Excuse my relativly newbie type question.

If you're testing a CD player or component that you comment is particulaly bright or dull or anything, how do you know it's not the partnering equipment effecting the sound? There are up to 5 other compoments (amplifiers, preamplifiers, cables etc). How do you know that each of these effects sound negativly or positivly?

Also, do you have the same amplifiers (high end) for everything you test, so that low end CD players may sound better as they're partnered with Krell and not the same calibre equipment? Shouldn't a R5000 component be tested with other R5000 components?

Lastly why not put some vital specs under a 'summary page' ... ? Dimentions, wattage, weight, ohms etc? I've seen the suggestion before and thought it'd be excellent, but nothing was ever done?

Thank you

Hi Dolby,

Thanks for your post - you raise some excellent points. I have reviewed for AVSA for some time (off and on), so thought I could shed some light:

I have a few reference systems, and a variety of equipment lying around that I use to verify the performance of any given component. I have a very good idea of how my reference components compare to other kit, and what their strengths and weaknesses are. I am also fully aware of how my listening room interacts with the sytsem - a crucial factor in 'calibrating' a reference.

Finally, I try and make sure that I have equipment on hand that would partner the equipment well. As an example, I recently tested a ~R16k Myryad amp/cd combo, and paired this with a set of Paradigm Mini Monitors that were on review at a similar time. This is a fair more realistic setup than pairing the same electronics with my R30 000 Dynaudios ...


It's important to note, though, that even if you don't partner equipment with similarly priced kit, it is still possible to revew, especially if looking at a CD player. Large speakers generally need large, high quality amps, though.

Your final point regarding specs boxes is a little confusing - AVSA currently publishes a 'Vital Stats' panel with every review. This includes basic specs as well as pricing and contact info. Adding to this would mean adding more pages per review, which would mean fewer reviews per issue. In other words, we compromise on getting a good mix between number of reviews, and amount of information per review.

Hope this helps.

Sean Jammy

[Ampdog]

It is not necessary to partner similar priced equipment.

Intuitively it might well not be meaningful to decide on expensive equipment when the rest is inferior, but the inverse is not true.

I must also say that this business of "partnering equivalent equipment" is an overrated principle (if one at all). There should be no reason for a brand A tuner, brand B cd player etc. not to work well with a brand C amplifier etc. "Matching" is also much of an urban legend. The output impedance of any feeding device should be and normally is much lower than the input impedance of the fed device; apart from that signal levels are important but stipulated in the specs. I did find that different cd players can have quite a spread in output signal amplitude (from 0,5V to 5V!) - but again the specs would state that. With that proviso all proper equipment could be partnered. Aesthetically products of the same brand could of course be preferable.

[Since this is an AVSA forum, I was requested to reveal that I have been a technical advisor/writer for the magazine for the past 15 years, though I was not too active lately. Some articles are in the pipeline. For the record, my name is Johan Potgieter - I am an EE and designer of amplifiers, valve and semiconductor.]

[Timber_MG]

I recon the first step is to objectively assure one self that there is in fact a difference between devices when factors such as gain, FR tapers in the range 20-16 (let's leave some room for brickwall filters or the "other" kind) have been accounted for. One so often sees especially salespeople trying to address problems in the FR/acoustical domain with what amounts to a placebo remedy seeing that suggested "upgrades"/replacement equipment is technically close enough to be wholly inconsequential.

In the acoustical sphere a pair of loudpseakers at a given cost point can often outperform a "higher-end" unit in less well set-up acoustics and electronics can only do so much to remedy the situation (and most of that is usually shunned by the "purists"). Often the "higher-end" results more in marketing engineering than acoustic engineering aimed at providing value (though there are notable exceptions) and unfortunately device reviews of a subjective nature are some times pulled in to aid and abett imo fraudulent sales practice by incompetent salespeople (and I find that boutiques run rife with this breed)

An example: If a loudspeaker with a large flare in the HF power response (say at 3-5kHz like a well reviewed for on axis FR brand that is widely regarded amongst consumers) is integrated into a live acoustical environment, no CD player, amplifier or cable will do anything to address the resulting upper midrange prominence (and EQ will only leave you with a duller reverberant field and a hole on axis).

This is also where I see the role of AV magazines in educating the public at large but also giving them sufficent objective information by which to make informed and relevant choices. So often the choice of a loudspeaker is made in the (usually damped) listening room with little or ill-considdered (due to technical incompetence often) information or lacking knowledge as to what actually matters in the specific acoustic situation of the client. I get the impression that this lack of knowledge often sees individuals looking at items in the "signal chain" as the source of their problems where the acoustical practice might show to a very different set of problems in reality (commonly encountered in any domestic situation)

</rant>

*edit: grammar*

[skinnyfat]

</rant>

class LOOOL {
        public static void main(String args[]){
      System.out.println("LOOOL");
    }
}

[Viagara]

class LOOOL {
    // your program begins with a call to main()
    public static void main(String args[]){
      System.out.println("LOOOL");
    }
}

Full marks for originality, Skinny This bit of code could be utilised in many areas of AV

[williamkelly]

When reviewing I know my system quite well and so have a basis to contextualise changes to it. I try to only change the system to accommodate only the review component so that I revert to the mean. And then I try and listen when I am in a jolly jovial good mood which is something equipment suppliers don't understand -  a big fat bribe puts me in the most jovial and jolly good mood you can imagine. Yes! I can be bought and relatively cheaply too.

And then its up to the component to convince me. Sure, the process is biased and unfair - and that's just the way it should be. You don't see Clarkson liking BMW simply because its BMW do you? What's to like after all? The man is perfectly correct in his bias .

But overall on the balance of all reviews some components will stand higher than others. This might be an indication of superiority - the one thing I have learned over the years is that there is no way to really tell what works for other people. So these days I don't really bother about it - I report on what works for me whilst trying to accentuate the positive aspects of the component. Occasionally there are none and I will send the component back un-reviewed - fortunately that hasn't happened in ages now.

Re matching components - hmm. I used to subscribe to that philosophy when I was young and foolish. It's a bunch of baloney. Do a blind listening test on CD players ranging from R2k to R22k and you'll see what I mean. Worse, engage in the same test with the vinyl crowd and the point should be crystal clear... Whatever works for you is what works - and precisely the same applies to reviewers, along with our prejudices, equipment and idiosyncrasies.

 

[Viagara]

a big fat bribe puts me in the most jovial and jolly good mood you can imagine. Yes! I can be bought and relatively cheaply too.

Good one William

[Shonver]

Do a blind listening test on CD players ranging from R2k to R22k and you'll see what I mean.

William, some of us may not be in a position to do this, so won't you give us a clue?