Author Topic: What price 'Name'?  (Read 3004 times)

Ampdog

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Re: What price 'Name'?
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2011, 11:27:25 pm »
I have to add that I think the only systems I heard that were lifelike and seemingly transparent in total, were really expensive systems.

Really?

That raises questions then, unless in said systems the loudspeaker could have been the main factor.

Perhaps time I bring something medium-priced over to you for auditioning? (But that would be the amplifier only - your loudspeakers and CD player.) I will PM you.
'Miracles' are not contrary to Nature - they are only contrary to our understanding of Nature

chipwelder

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Re: What price 'Name'?
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2011, 07:30:46 am »
Unfortunately you'd have to bring at least 2 stereo power amps, I use 6 channels, but they are lm3886 based... so any of your designs would make do with four. I'm an active yobbo... with a passive twist.
I definitely agree the speakers were expensive, to achieve a sense of scale sufficient to fool the foolish senses requires some expense here... but my system is not entirely up to the task of recreating a lifelike impression... unless it is a single guitar... and then not even really.

You would be most welcome though.
OK! I've had it! I don't give anymore Kharma. Kharma should work in mysterious ways...

Ampdog

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Re: What price 'Name'?
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2011, 09:43:32 pm »
Sorry Chipwelder,

Misunderstanding. I was thinking stereo while you apparently meant a full ht system.

If so, that would obviously be quite expensive to be good.
'Miracles' are not contrary to Nature - they are only contrary to our understanding of Nature

Hi-Phibian

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Re: What price 'Name'?
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2011, 10:03:21 pm »
Sorry Chipwelder,

Misunderstanding. I was thinking stereo while you apparently meant a full ht system.

If so, that would obviously be quite expensive to be good.

Nope, stereo, line level crossovers.

chipwelder

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Re: What price 'Name'?
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2011, 08:36:05 am »
Yes... I have a stereo 2.5way, but the .5way is courtesy of a big fat inductor on the one midwoofer...

Make no mistake I have heard very nice sounding systems for not SO much moolah, Like hi-phibians previous [audiophysic step] system - I could listen to music all day long and not miss a thing, it sang very very nice... but the REAL sounding ones... the ones where the illusion is very very close, scale, dynamics, microdetail, lifelike bass, the ones that have all of that have been really pricey. And of course the rooms were very well sorted.

And some of those expensive systems for all of that failed to be enjoyable. So price is not the only pre-requisite...

I have to reiterate Ampdog, I don't know your amps personally, but given the specs and reputation, for you and Schalk and Andre and Rudi to bring amps to the international market consistently and with full service backup, they would probably cost a lot more than they do. You need to have a minor factory on the go to meet demand, then you'd have to appoint trusted service agents elsewhere, keep them up to date, supply them with difficult to come by parts... So in that sense I agree with Hi-Phibian, R&D pales into insignificance compared to QC and Service if you go global. I mean your amps would have to be "SABS" tested in all those countries... so that means 3 - 5 amps AND a fee...

OK! I've had it! I don't give anymore Kharma. Kharma should work in mysterious ways...

Moog

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Re: What price 'Name'?
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2011, 10:11:13 pm »
After reading this review, in which two independent reviewers concluded that they could not recommend the Audio Research SP-9 Preamplifier, this made me realise that coming up with a good-sounding amp is not easy and not just a matter of putting components together. Audio Reseach has made many ground-breaking products, so how could they come up with this one? I was impressed by the reviewers', bravery , something that you hardly see with our local (both expert and personal) reviewers and local products. The end result, (wrongly or rightly) is that  i  am more likely to belive what these critical reviewers say. (Of-course i still retain my critical judgement) than our brethren and sistren.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-sp9-preamplifier-letters-288
All music is folk music.  I ain't never heard a horse sing a song.  ~Louis Armstrong

Ampdog

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Re: What price 'Name'?
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2011, 01:46:00 am »
Chipwelder,

I must reply to your post in ve-e-ery small type. I reread my input to this and as I think I later corrected it. On the point that you now mention, I agreed with Hi-Phib all the time as I do with you. Do realise that my point had to do with NAME. In other words I meant/should have stated more clearly, that I actually compared makes where the 'overheads' (including everything) was a common factor, though I introduced local heroes too early in the discussion. Well-known commercial brand A selling for 10x the amount of similar well-known commercial brand B, etc. Better?

I will sort out with you in PM whether a visit is practical. Otherwise, thanks for your input. I reiterate that I am out of depth regarding commercial systems' comparisons. Could not afford that myself, have not had the opportunity otherwise. (Lots of T-shirts, but not in that regard.)
'Miracles' are not contrary to Nature - they are only contrary to our understanding of Nature

Ampdog

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Re: What price 'Name'?
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2011, 02:28:47 am »
Moog,

Ah Bro!! Did you have to? (re discussions in the quoted Stereophiles). Time I see your friendly visage again.

I would advise members to read the given Stereophile comments (letters). The first disqualifying thing appears to be that the test was hurried, under different circumstances. But the interpretation of the figures are also wrong. The writer under "Statistics" comes close, but 4 out of 4 .... is no measure of accuracy here.

Boredom warning. I repeat our long ago 'silly' CSIR experiment of tossing a coin some 150 times and recording the results (it was done in lunch-time, so no waste of the taxpayers money). As expected the end result was, I recall, some 49.something to 50.something; a very good result. Good - but on more than one occasion I guessed correctly 6 out of 6 times, and about as much wrongly in succession! Other did too. SO! If those 6 times happened to be at the beginning, the result was surely 'as perfect as you can get'. Moral: The 6 out of 6 was meaningless, as the actual result was the expected 50% chance thing as proved. SMALL SAMPLES ARE MISLEADING.... and small can be a large number, as strange as it might seem.

The subjective factor is not simply a (subjective!) swear-word; it is literally an incontrovertible  physiological factor - not to belabour further here.

So there you are Moog. (Now for interest I would like to see the respective circuit diagrams!)
'Miracles' are not contrary to Nature - they are only contrary to our understanding of Nature

chipwelder

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Re: What price 'Name'?
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2011, 11:07:51 am »
I hear you, I believe I am not a very clear, if very opinionated, audio person...

Maybe it is time for a chat... first I have to fix my rig again!!!! noticed in my early morning don't wanna wake-up slumber what I did wrong...
OK! I've had it! I don't give anymore Kharma. Kharma should work in mysterious ways...

FWP

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Re: What price 'Name'?
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2011, 01:41:27 pm »
How  “we”  can  misunderstand  a  thread ?! Reading  a  tone  into  a  mail  or  perceiving  something  different  to  what  was  intended  is  very  interesting. “We”  have  problems  with  verbal  communications  no  wonder  so  much  more  with  written  works.
Ampdog  -----  have  to  agree  100%  with  you. Example: Although  not  audio  same  rules  apply.
I  have  an  older  (Non – LED ) Mag-lite --- 4 cell--- torch. I  can  buy  an  LED  globe  for  my  torch  for  R299. BUT  I can  buy  a  Terra…….   Torch  that  comes  with  a  LED  and  has  more  Lumens  than the  Mag  conversion  for  R 320  with  a  5  year  guarantee. Clearly  Mag-lite  is  ripping  us  big  time. Irrespective  of  how  much  money  I have  I will  not  support  the  Mag  group.  The  same  principles  that  apply  to  the  LED  technology   applies  to  amplifiers.  It  is  impossible  under  any  circumstances ----- irrespective  of  R&D  and  marketing  ----- that  the  asking  price  is warranted.  Now  a  very  “ clever”  answer ---- “ because  I  can”. You  might  as well  pay  500k  for a  Picanto  because  you  can. I  have  yet  to  hear  anything  more  absurd  than  that.
Some  of  us  “older”  guys  have  worked  and  still  do  for  our  money  unlike  many  in  the  new  SA  where  the  value  of  money  seems  to  be  lost  completely. Maybe  we  need  to  do  some  introspection  and  adjust  our  value  system ? Personally   ----  I  think  its  a  joke.( Absurd  prices).     

cj

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Re: What price 'Name'?
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2011, 03:24:34 pm »
paying 500k for a picanto would be absurd, not because the picanto doesnt cost that to make but rather because it is mass produced and created in the cheapest possible way. if someone liked the picanto and only 5000 units were ever made and the asking price was 500k and they could, then why the hell not? frankly i think it is completely absurd for anyone of us to even think of telling others what they should do with their money. if someone likes something regardless of cost then why cant they purchase it and be proud of it? why is it that people have to sit here and complain about other people getting ripped off.

 If someone can afford a 100k amplifier and purchase it instead of buying a 20k one that does the same job then why not. frankly the audiophile hobby is overpriced in almost every arena. most people are happy with a small samsung micro system, but most of us here would prefer a nice onkyo or marantz, because its built better and leaves us with a feeling that we got something better and more unique, the samsung would still produce very decent audio at a fraction of the price, yet we support the audiophile brands because they offer slightly better performance at a much higher price. we do this because we can afford the more expensive one in this scenario. the cable industry is a prime example, monster cable charges 5 times the price of some good quality "no name brand stuff" for some 16awg ofc cable and yet  people are willing to pay the extra for the brand and the feeling they are getting a better product. monster has managed to create a brand that people are all too willing to pay for, not because their products are far superior but because people want that feeling that they are getting the best even if it costs them 5 times the price. if the guy who buys the picanto for 500k feels he is getting the best, then let him, ignorance is bliss and fools are soon parted from their money, but if he is happy then the price is worth it according to the only person who's opinion matters, the purchaser.

So if someone is fortunate in life and has large amounts of cash at their disposal and choose to spend it on exclusive over priced goodies then why not, the fact is the items that we think are too expensive are not made for or targeted at us, they are targeted at those fortunate enough not to worry about price, those who can simply say"because i can". Its like walking into a rolls royce dealership, if you have to ask, you cant afford it. ofcourse that saying is cocky, but it has truth to it. if you have to ask how much a luxury item costs then you are most probably not in the position to spend a stupid amount of money on the item. if you are too worried about the insurance premiums or the price of fuel or servicing or how you can afford to pay it off or the depreciation or the value for money, then the rolls royce is not for you. but if you have vast quantities of cash and an eye for quality and want to be different from 99.9% of other motorists then R5million is not a issue.Exclusivity comes at a cost. R5 million might be a bargain for such exclusivity to some. To me it seems a waste, for a fifth of the price you could get a bmw 7 series, lots of luxury, some exclusivity and a comfy ride, but it wont have the same felling to say you drive a beemer when you could say you drive a rolls. ofcourse the people who purchase the rolls know they paying for the name, and for the status and for the exclusivity, but if they can, then why not.