What price 'Name'?

[Ampdog]

AVSA April, p.52.

AMS 35W stereo amplifier for R119 000??

Is it noticably 7 - 9 times better than e.g. a Valve Audio or Maestro? Why should anyone buy this, ...and does it sell? Just wondering ......

... and just to get us up to date from the 70s: Please, the time is long gone where 'class-A' deserve the distinction of being 'pure' as in a superlative way. These days any half-decent design, s.s. or valve working in class AB, has as little audible distortion as class A. Cross-over distortion (not evident with class A) has long since been overcome. This is easy to prove by both measurements and golden ears. Respectfully, one would imagine that a company such as Musical Fidelity (never mind others) would have polished up their specmanship.

[NoSnipeLimit]

Probably comes with a small nuclear power station to give it a smooth constant power supply.

[dotVIBE]

"electricity is 50% of the sound!*

[Moog]

Ampdog,if the AMS 35W stereo amplifier refers to the musical fidelity, it cost 6000 pounds in its home country. Its bigger brother, AMS100 costs a staggering 13,000 pounds and i wonder how much it will cost here. And,,, how about these:

Mark Levinson Class D monbolcs - 20,000 pounds a pair
Sonus Faber Flagship Speakers - a staggering 140,000 pounds a pair
Ongaku valve amp - 120,000 us dollars

The list goes on, maybe that is why SARS treats hifi as luxury goods, just like whisky and other esoteric products.

[PearlJam]

OT: haha, I always see a post by Ampdog before I have my new magazine.  Need to subscribe again.

[Gerhard]

It is crazy .

Especially since one could get a Pioneer VSX-520 AV receiver (reviewed on p42 by William Kelly) that manages to pump out 150W per channel into five channels (no specifics are offered so what else is one supposed to "believe"). Now the truly astonishing thing is that this amp (or is it a power station?) manages this feat with a power supply that consumes only 240W!! Lesser amps won't be able to manage 150W per channel into even TWO channels - even if they were 100% efficient on a 240W power supply.

Now the real shocker for me is the fact that the reviewer actually hears this. He states, "It feels to me as if the power is more peaky than continuous..." but then he adds (sadly) ".. - but that is just an impression."

I have seen this sort of thing many times before in AVSA and have yet to see the figures presented by the manufacturer being put into perspective by the reviewer.

I recently received my Emotiva UPA-7 power amplifier. It is a 7 channel amp that puts out a "mere" 125W per channel into 8 Ohms and yet its power supply is rated at 1700W!! That amounts to 242.85W per channel and with typical class A/B amplifier efficiency at 50% or less the numbers actually add up. The thing weighs over 30kg!

I guess mighty power comes in (very) small packages...

[Ampdog]

@ Moog,

WHAT!!  Are those prices (I presume) in their home countries... oh sure, otherwise you would have stated prices in Rand. This time of morning ......

@ All,

Yes. So is that sadly the answer? Before I proceed: Please note that my remarks regarding the instruments are not levelled at the persons involved; I have no reason not to see them as anything but honourable persons. It is about the products and their relative values.

I must step carefully here as there is a personal involvement (not quite a rant!). Let me just say if only for argument's sake: If I have designed a twin 100W stereo valve amplifier involving all I know how and if it can be proved that its performance surpasses everything in its class - then am I stupid or can I also market it for, let us say, R100K? I know I will not sell a single one at say half that price .... so thus my sad point. What is there to encourage us designers - and I include ALL local guys - to provide audible and measurable quality? Or should we all go back to being 23 years of age, make a name first, and then put - er - decent stuff on the market but nothing special .... because the revered name will sell "über alles"? (A thought: Perhaps I should call my amplifier: 'ÜBER'  [must start somewhere ...]

I would again ask that I not be considered arrogant for this line of argument; it is simple down-to-earth truth. And I would dare to say I speak for all local manufacturers of audio equipment.
(As close as I could come to a rant without ranting.)

But please, those informed of whatever form of trade ... kindly level with us?
___________________________________________________________________
PS: Moog, I will not commnent on the On-Gacu or such. It has very audible distortion blah blah blah. As I have once told you: I (and my fellow local designers) design for intelligent people, 'schluss'.

[Ampdog]

Oh Gerhard (almost forgot about your point).

Here one must allow for two instances: Maximum mains VA drawn, and idle VA drawn. I would actually like both figures mentioned, but perhaps that is left to the "savvy" of users. Problem is that the maximum power drawn is also not that meaningful in audio, as it lasts for a relatively short time at a time, compared to average - you will know about the on-off power ratio of normal music and speech. So if the low rating is under idle conditions (as I suspect), it can be regarded as meaningful. Only one would expect it to be stated as such. To their credit, some amplifiers do exactly that. But a great deal (again as you might know) depends heavily on the power supply design. Extra filter capacity can become quite audible - but is expensive. So how to find the best balance ....

[Hi-Phibian]

Lets call a spade a bulldozer. This is not meant to be personal but it may come across that way. I sometimes feel myself feeling the same. There is an amount of jealousy and anger when you see what some folks manage to create and what it ultimately retails for.

However, reasoning that it is all about the functioning of the product and what price you could create the same function for on the kitchen table is so ridiculously naïve it makes me laugh. It borders on the sales man who only slags a competing product rather then showing the benefit of his.



Unfortunately many engineers that are still building consumer goods in their garage are too stuck on the 'logos" and perhaps "ethos" part of business. Marketing and successful consumer goods sales are about "pathos".

Then again, some like living humbly with a lot of logos and ethos but then one needs to make peace with being there.

Van Gogh vs Dali for eg.



The name and familiarity or exclusiveness of the name counts (but not on its own), the look counts, the perceived status you achieve with your peers counts, the function counts, the passion of the seller counts and remember that folks buy expensive toys to reward themselves. How does a Rolex compare to a Casio on the functionality front? Pride of ownership? People buy these things with their heart, not their head. Design with the head, market with the heart.



In real business, not kitchen table creation, there are a lot of bills to pay too and the sales channel will involve more then a circle of mates and happy users punting the creation. Each one involved, is trying to somehow earn a living. Profit is not a swear word, it is what keeps most of us fed somehow. How much of it is fair requires an in depth study of the real world and some may be in for a shock (Anyone ever heard of confidential rebates paid direct to people in the chain? Keeps our supermarkets alive at supposedly low margin I believe.).



Find the niche, find the spin, find the PATHOS. Don't compare your kitchen enterprise to Musical Fidelity, Marantz and Krell etc. Sales teams, marketing teams, board members and share holders, R&D departments etc etc. Often, the designer can't create the spin and someone else sees the potential and does it with them.

Look at folks doing similar things commercially well. Kondo, Shindo, EAR/Tim De Paravicini, 47labs, Yamamoto, The Funk Firm, TW Acoustic, Transrotor, Koetsu, Benz Micro and the like. Also consider Patek Phillipe and every other hand made low volume swiss watchmaker, pen maker or car maker.



Quad is now owned by the Chinese and would have been bust if it was not, speaks volumes, not?

Spade put back in garden shed.

[Ampdog]

Well then

that makes it abundantly clear where Hi-Phibian stands regarding us local "kitchen-table" producers - as well as all the other reasonably priced high quality equipment out there produced, I believe, in somewhat of a more industrial environment than the kitchen table, also subject to all the paraphanalia of commercial enterprise which he so lucidly if condescendingly shared with us mortals ......

Man oh man ...

End of debate from me.

[Oh, sorry. Not quite: "... rather than showing the benefit of his". I believe that has been done, G?]

[Hi-Phibian]

Hi Ampdog sadly it would seem you have completely missed my point.
IMO there is at least one local manufacturer of high end that "gets it".

[Family_Dog]

I think that virtually every component now used in building amplifiers and so on now has an "audiophile" available version at 10 - 100 times the pricing available for expressing 'true' high-fidelity" sound.


And so I racked my brains on how I can climb onto the band wagon and make some dough.


After about five seconds, I came up with it!


We have all heard how every component - from 220v AC Mains cables to Gold plated speaker terminals and everything in between - is the ultimate in offering the very best in sound reproduction. But these experts have all missed some very important items, which makes this all superfluous. But fear not - I have explored this and I can guarantee that this is the ultimate solution to the previous weak link ignored by so many for so long. As I have now patented the idea, I am now able to explain to you, Mr. Audiophiile, the untold benefits you will reap.


*THE* most important single item in any high-quality amplifier is not the fuse, no, not the mains or any other transformer (which, by the way, are able to benefit in a HUGE way from my patent), nor the output trannies or any other component, but the MOUNTING SCREWS holding these items in place!! Think about it: You connect your expensive gear to the 220v AC Mains and immediately it suffers a severe thermal and mechanical shock when Whoosh! - millions of electrons, all vibrating viciously against one another en route to the AC transformer, where they come to a sudden turnabout through being routed vigourously along hundreds of turns of copper coiled wire back from whence they came. As the Caps charge, more and more of these visibly shaken electrons arrive to bring life to your sound reproduction system. The transformer hence faces undue stress as many millions more hitherto sleeping electrons in the secondary coils now come alive and start running around in the opposite direction through very much more thicker coils of Cu. The transformer is under duress!


This is now where my "Sleeping Giant" (patented) titanium NASA rated cyrogenically treated gold-plated, silver-dipped, heat & vibration retarded high-quality fasteners come into play. All stresses caused by electrons bouncing up & down, to & fro, are immediately dampened as the Fasteners (Note: they are not "Screws", as this term is derogatory to the finely-engineered items that I manufacture and market) absorb this energy, producing the following immediately beneficial improvements to your listening pleasure:


 * Your equipment now runs cooler as there is no more vibration of transformers causing heat losses

 * The output stages are now perfectly married to their heatsinks and therefore run cooler

 * Electrons now travel in a more orderly fashion in a cool and calm manner, no longer losing their way because of thermal instability (lower operating temperatures)

 * The amplifier no longer suffers severe thermal shock due to power surges upon initial switch-on.

 * Due to the lower stresses now resultant, cheaper components may now be used for amplifier construction.


There are many, many more benefits which will become obvious to you, dear Audiophile, as you devote more loving time to your Audio Reproduction gear that is fitted with the very best upgrade ever - my gift* to Audiophiles everywhere - the Sleeping Giant Fastener System (patented).


* Well, you do realise I went to great expense sourcing the unobtainium material for producing these fasteners and my travels and research took all my life savings too. So, understandably, I must recover my costs for this project. So, as a special opening offer, I will be making these available to you, dear Audiophile, at the princely sum of R3899.99 per package of 20 specially sorted Sleeping Giant fasteners, which is sufficient for ONE monoblock. For stereo, you will require two packets, for 5.1 HT systems you can order our 5.5 special at R18999.00. Postage & delivery is included in these never to be repeated prices.



SLEEPING GIANT FASTENERS - You will marvel in Audio Bliss and wonder why no-one has ever before paid attention to this ultimate solution to your audio woes, which will now be a thing of the past.


Testimonials from satisfied users soon available (as soon as I have written them!)



-F_D

[Hi-Phibian]

Excellent product. Glad you went with non magnetic material.
When will you have product suitable for speakers available? Any pre order specials?

[Family_Dog]

Excellent product. Glad you went with non magnetic material.
When will you have product suitable for speakers available? Any pre order specials?

Thank you, G! (My first testimonial!!) 


The speaker version of the "SLEEPING GIANT FASTENER' is currently under test (I do test my products thoroughly before releasing them to my fellow Audiophiles). I am listening to the The Little Drummer Boy performed by the Harry Simeone Chorale and man! Those drums sound amazing!!


Will definitely consider your suggestion of pre-order specials!


-F_D

[Shonver]

I have to sadly and regrettably concede to Mr Frog's assertion that all that matters is whether you can haal uit en wys (produce the goods). As a person who has always nurtured the dream of establishing a killer audio brand, with all the right performance specifications and Pure Engineering, I realise that even knowing how to do it right does not even get you a foot in the door. The Ongakus of this world exist because people believe in them. And they have a product for sale. Bottom line (note to self) is: Put up or Shut Up*.

*Absolutely no offence indended to myself or other respectable members here. But that's just how it is.