AVSA Dec 09/ Jan 2010

[GearSlave]

I agree with Joel. By doing testing you'll be opening a hornet's nest of issues. For any testing to be remotely meaningfull the conditions will have to be exactly the same from test to test. This may be doable for amps, but is definately a BIG issue with speakers. Just too many variables that come into play for it to be reliable enough.

[Vaughan]

Could you imagine what would happen if we tested distributor A's amp and found it couldnt meet its output figures, but didnt test their closest competitor, who more than likely would fail a test too?

I can imagine what issues you would face with if competitor A's product couldn't meet spec regardless of whether it's competition was a better or worse performer. 

Regards,

[Ampdog]

Could you imagine what would happen if we tested distributor A's amp and found it couldnt meet its output figures, but didnt test their closest competitor, who more than likely would fail a test too?

Mmmmm ....

But how is Stereophile doing this? They test some equipment without testing all equivalents.

I do not quite see it that it is AVSA's duty to do a 'shoot-out' to be fair. As Gert said, it would more or less limit you to testing amplifiers because of the facilities' problem. But in that case, you do a test on what specs are available; they are met or not, and competitors can't complain when they have not submitted their products.

Amplifiers are only one link in the chain and normally not the weakest. But I (sorry for the personal bend) do get the willies when an amplifier is lauded by a reviewer as wonderful ... 'can I ever recommend this amplifier' ... and JA's tests show that spectrum analysis is lousy; distortion of 1% at full output - if one ever had a candidate for listener fatigue .... and the circuit diagram shows which corners have been cut. That at least is measurable and repeatable and unchallengable. Oh well - that's me ....

[joel]

I should possibly have qualified my statement by adding:  if both distributor A and Distributor B submitted amplifiers for review, but we only tested amplifier A, we would be in big trouble.

[Viagara]

Based on what I have read thus far, Joel is very honest in his opinions concerning equipment and I honestly applaud him for that.

BUT, my remark(question) about the Sony issue has not been answered, why would a reviewer of William's stature state an output of 1,000 watts for a setup that clearly cannot deliver that output?

[Ampdog]

According to what I could find this "1,000 watts" is made up of 143w x 5 plus 285w which sounds very convenient ...

Gee, these Capeys .   not counting only the screws, but now also the watts: 1,  2,  3, ... 998, 999, 1000! 

Not replying for Kelly's sake (I don't owe him a thing - yet), but what you have there, Alphabet, is exactly correct!

Agreed, William sounds as if it is a done deal instead of more cautiously saying somewhere at least "they say/specify". (In that respect he can take a tip from his editor).  Power output does add up to exactly that - whether it will be so in practice is another matter, But as far as that is concerned at least I find AVSA consistent in treating all products the same. Also, as previous comments went, they have little other option outside of having measured that.

.... and then there are those tiny loudspeakers capable (sic) of handling all that .....

As was said before and most of us know, this business of maximum available power output is moot. If the power supply voltage is there and the supply capacitors are big enough and the normal music power situation exists (low average/peak power actually occurring), and if not too many peaks occur simultaneously, each of the channels might deliver what is specified, and the sum of that will be the total power on tap - thus not a total lie. What the actual situation is will be somewhere between that and say <half of that,with the probability that it will be closer to the latter. But then to state that as a spec is also not true; the competition might do it differently.

It is to be hoped that using the above analysis will at least give us apples to compare with apples, with the consumer wise enough to know about reality. In that respect AVSA can play a role - and must.

[williamkelly]

What is a watt really? A watt is one joule of energy expended in one second. One joule of is the electrical energy euqal to the work done when a current of one ampere passes through a one ohm resistance for one second.

So if the manufacturer claims Watts PMPO or Watts RMS or watts squared or wattever generally I disregard them entirely.

Watts in hi-fi is about as relevant as the calibre of bullet used in an elephant gun when shooting a mouse. In other words, I disregard wattage completely, unless it is exceptional - as in some true Class A amps that can only deliver 15W, or in some extreme cases when one gets a pair of speakers that require 500W to begin to sound like anything.

That said, I often quote manufacturers specs willy nilly verbatim purely from a point of view in terms of positioning the product. I feel that if you are driven by these specs then they are likely to appeal to you from the broad perspective of influencing your opinion of the product. In other words, if you want to buy 1000W as opposed to 900, or 60x7, then well good luck to you. That's your right as a consumer.

Where I feel that a product actually has the guts to dump the watts they claim into a system, I will say so, as in the case of something like a Yammie or NAD or most of the higher end products. These days there are very few products however that are truly awful, which in my opinion makes the watt race less and less relevant. In other words, does anyone really care about watts anymore? And if so, are they still attached to their turntables?

Maybe I'm too old and all grown up these days but I always thought it was about what those watts actually sounded like. I haven't really had a product in year now for review where I can recollect that I would be having sleepless nights over it claiming a higher wattage output than it is actually capable of delivering. Long before then I can assure you it would most likely have been tossed out onto the scrap heap and left to rust in the rain.

[Viagara]

What? Or should that be WATT?

I agree with you William that there are many other factors that determine if a product is good irrespective of the claimed output.

It just irks me that the marketing departments of many audio manufacturers often don't have a clue when they quote specifications and if I see 1000w been mentioned in a review of a product that clearly is not capable of delivering that I have to speak up. As Ampdog says, us Capeys

I enjoy many(if not all) your reviews, particularly when the "tongue in cheek" comes through clearly and I have on many occasions said to friends of mine that you are one of the reviewers I would love to meet, as I think you have the same kind of warped sense of humor that I am accused of having

[Family_Dog]

I would love to meet, as I think you have the same kind of warped sense of humor that I am accused of having Wink

Heaven help us... two of them! 


-F_D

[GearSlave]

That would be the end of this hobby for all, as we know it.

Let us all stand together and make sure such a union never happens!!!!!

[Andrew]

That would be the end of this hobby for all, as we know it.

Let us all stand together and make sure such a union never happens!!!!!

Yes, William is our 'special' child. 

[FWP]

Compared to other forums this one is seldom used and the reason I believe is the following.
Alphabet had a straight forward remark/question. Not attacking anybody personally.
We are fortunate to have the likes of Ampdog on the forum who knows more about
amplification than most. Thanks Johan !!!
William responds in a manner that justifies his review. Not what we want or like but the way he sees it. “Does anyone really care about Watts anymore” and then the turntable comment. What is that supposed to suggest William?
As far as I am concerned many of us care a lot about the Watts. Let me tell you why William. In my surround system my main front speakers are B&W 604’s. Anything less than 180 Watt RMS(into 8 Ohm) does not drive these speakers to their full capacity. 
In my stereo system I had two massive horn design speakers built for me. They deliver only when driven with at least 200 Watts. Both my systems would have been lousy had I not had sufficient power to drive my speakers.
Added most of us know that distortion comes from overdriving an amplifier. The more current available from the amp the less the chance of distortion. (Yes I am generalising )
The point being that Watts in all its forms play a vital role in any system. From the sound to the speaker matching to the room size. You question the importance???
So William, it’s got everything to do with what you are connecting to these Watts.
You obviously don’t have power hungry speakers but many of us do. The amount of speaker reviews that Deon made a point that you need lots of Watts are many.
I am gob smacked by your remark.
Exactly what alphabet is referring to with the marketing guys happened to me. I purchased a highly acclaimed Kenwood receiver that had loads of clean watts according to them----remember I NEED the watts to drive my speakers. Once installed I immediately knew something was wrong---after 30 odd years I should know. I found that the rating on the amp was into 2ohm’s----into 8 it became very little. Kenwood refunded my money, R 16 000,00 without a problem. I then bought a Denon and later added a power amp for my fronts anyway. Result ----brilliant sound---all about watts!!!!!!
Ampdog---please rap me over the knuckles :-). Could you clarify if I have a distorted view of the matter? I spoke to Schalk not to long ago and questioned the output Wattage of an amp compared to the Watts drawn from the mains socket. Can you deliver a 1000 Watts but only draw 350 from the mains??
I think a less defensive and my way or the highway attitude would be great to get this forum going. There is so much to learn from our experts. Lots to share from our experiences. We should be having on going chats on the forum. Constructive criticism has never been a bad thing. We might even get a post like some of the other forums.
“How do I connect my CD player to my receiver “.However annoying a question like this might be it proves that even the not so passionate are aware of the forum and that says a lot.
SORRY guys----I did say I would remove myself from the forum. I just couldn’t! :-)

[Viagara]

SORRY guys----I did say I would remove myself from the forum. I just couldn’t! :-)

Now why would you want to do something like that? Stay and lets have more fruitful discussions

[Shonver]

Now why would you want to do something like that? Stay and lets have more fruitful discussions

Ja. If you leave you won't be able to vent like you just did.

[FWP]

Thanks guys I will stick around. Without the venting site I might need a therapist.:-)
Interesting development---for years I have been questioning the use of pro-audio amplification in home theater systems and stereo for that matter. Being so much more affordable !!! Most of the time I was shot down. My friends at HFX are now going the pro-audio route and it sounds amazing. Must admit their pro-audio setup I have never even heard of and it’s expensive. Nevertheless I decided a couple of years ago to test this myself. I bought a Behringer power amp. Connected this and its still there.
The bands are using pro-audio equipment on stage----when we replay we need specialized hi-fi equipment ? I thought the idea was to get as close to the stage version as possible. Confused !!