Author Topic: Help me choose a turntable  (Read 4552 times)

krepunk

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Help me choose a turntable
« on: March 07, 2009, 09:26:23 am »
Hi everyone,

I think this is my first post :)
I'm looking at getting a turntable and would love some advice from the people that are wiser than I.
I'm sure you all are aware of what's available second hand on avsa and chillivinyl:

So I can get an old Linn Sondek LP 12. Or I can get an old Rega Planar 3 for the same price. Or I can get an Thorens TD160 Super for half the price.
The Linn comes with a RB 300 tonearm with Rondo red MC cartridge.
The Rega with an RB300 and Ortofon MC Turbo cartrdige.
And the Thorens comes with a Linn Basik and A&R C77 cartridge.

I'm going to listen to the Thorens today, and hopefully tomorrow the Linn, but at the moment I'm torn. Apparently the Linn can be an awesome table, but difficult as it requires services and needs to be set up correctly.

There's also the question of just biting the bullet and going brand new, like a P3-24 or an RPM5. I love both although I've only heard the RPM5.

What do you guys think? It's my first turntable so I'm tempted to go cheap and get the Thorens, but I don't want to be looking for another turntable next year or the year after.

Oh, i'll be listening to mainly punk and indie, through a marantz pm17 and some monitor audio rs6's that are awesome :)

chipwelder

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2009, 10:32:09 am »
How much do you want to fiddle with it, the linn can be tweaked until your eyes are watering from expense. How much life left over in the linn and P3 carts? You'll pay as much as for the decks (2ndhand) to replace those carts... Any of those will sound good, and won't be put to shame by the Marantz... How often do you suffer from upgraditis? if you do - get a tweaky Linn tt, if you don't, get P3. If you want to start low and tweak etc the Thorens might be nice. The cart appears to be fairly entry level, but still would be OK for a while... Do you have dedicated stand?
OK! I've had it! I don't give anymore Kharma. Kharma should work in mysterious ways...

ludo

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2009, 10:34:06 am »
Hi krepunk, and welcome!

The Linn is going for less than the price of its cart new. I think it's the most desirable item here. Mind that you could spend any amount upgrading that Linn from where it is. It's never the end of the road with those...

The Rega is going for less than its cart & arm. Either way you have an MC input on the amp so anything becomes a contender.

But if it was me, and seeing that you mostly listen to junk ( ;D ;D ;D) I'd get the Thorens and blow the rest of the budget at the owner of the Linn's joint, on a whole lot more vinyl... I have found some Dead Kennedys there...

Just listen to 'em all and let your ears decide. One will eventually upgrade everything, don't think about finality too much.
If it 's going vrot, put it on the buffet ! - Fats

krepunk

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2009, 11:03:56 am »
Thanks for the replies guys :)
No dedicated stand just yet. Working on it though. Would that affect your decision?
I'm hoping the listening test will point me in the right direction.

Hein

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2009, 11:23:03 am »

Do you have dedicated stand?


HEY!!! THAT'S MY LINE!!! ;)

Do you have a dedicated Audio Support Unit...?  ;D

...Supporting YOUR Music... CORRECTLY

Hein

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2009, 11:33:46 am »
The Linn!

If you want to go "bossies", get the Thorens, build a new plinth for it, replace the arm (it's 'orrible!!) and the cart... That old A&R C77 is LOOOOONG past it's "best buy" date!

Otherwise, the Linn... Best package, many simple upgrade mods - Not quite as good as a "pimped out" TD160, but that will cost a hell of a lot more in the long run...

...Supporting YOUR Music... CORRECTLY

chipwelder

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2009, 12:39:02 pm »
Well, if he doesn't the wobblies might be better, if he does, the P3 will be good and little fuss
OK! I've had it! I don't give anymore Kharma. Kharma should work in mysterious ways...

Hein

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2009, 03:52:09 pm »
...Supporting YOUR Music... CORRECTLY

krepunk

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2009, 04:10:09 pm »
So I'm back from listening to the Thorens. Was pretty good I think. Except that the belt slips off when ever you switch from 33 to 45 and visa versa. Think a new belt would solve that issue?
Also the cartridge advertised was wrong, the actual cartridge is a Grado Green.
Danie (who's selling the thorens) also mentioned that the Linn won't play 45 records... this would be an issue because I have a number of 45 7"s and 10"s :(

Family_Dog

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2009, 04:58:09 pm »
Best value for the buck? Thorens TD160!


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ludo

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2009, 06:21:48 pm »
So I'm back from listening to the Thorens. Was pretty good I think. Except that the belt slips off when ever you switch from 33 to 45 and visa versa. Think a new belt would solve that issue?

You have to tweak the angle the motor sits at by adjusting a screw. There's a pic of the solution in the service manual for the TD145/160/165. See http://www.theanalogdept.com/svcman_145_160_165.htm on page 2

In the user manual for the TD160 MkII and S, the same info appears, but in German at http://www.theanalogdept.com/td160_mk_ii_and_'s'.htm on page 22

If it 's going vrot, put it on the buffet ! - Fats

Vertigo

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2009, 08:43:39 pm »
The Rega Planar 3 decks are very good and easy to setup and maintain.  Contact Andries at Rega SA.  He might just have a good second Rega for you or might know somebody who has one to sell.

Good luck :)

ghostinthemachine

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2009, 10:12:57 pm »
Mmmm....

I would vote for the Thorens. Cant go wrong there. You can plonk the Thorens guts in a solid mass-loaded plinth and get away with a fuss-free machine.
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Hi-Phibian

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2009, 10:56:20 pm »
I am prolly not gonna make any friends with this post, nor is it gonna be a short one.
Lets try do this another way around. I have set up many of the mentioned decks, a girlfriend owned a TD160 IV, I owned and still own Linn (though severely Funked up) and owned a Planar 3 for a long time (b4 my first Linn TT).

First, unless you are buying your used belt drive turntable from someone who properly services them and spends a little money before putting them on the market besides cleaning them up, THEY WILL ALL NEED NEW BELTS. A belt is not worn when it falls of the pulley, by that time it is beyond worn and a disgrace to vinyl replay!!!
A shiny slippery belt (that may still be fairly snug) vs a fresh belt makes as big a difference to sound and presentation as cartridge upgrade. The decks will sound lifeless and uninteresting
Iow, imo, you have not yet heard the capability of any of these decks! Keep that in mind when comparing to new!

Belt prices for real replacements, not equivalents from the respective importers at last check: Thorens R300, Rega R350 and Linn R550 (No wonder thus that most used decks have shagged out belts)

The Rega imo is the worst buy, the price is too high, the market price for a Planar 3/RB300 is between R2500 and R3500 in good to mint condition without motor upgrades etc. I believe this sample even has a dodgy lid. Broken lid makes one wonder in what other ways the deck may have been mis-treated? New lid is R1K+ I think
Besides that, I would feel the Rega can be a little stark (lightish) in the bass regions. Poorly recorded thin sounding LPs may not be so much fun to listen too (Punk?). This seems a trait with lightweight unsuspended decks, with a few exceptions.
Set up is simple, though even Rega occasionally needs motor angle adjustment...

I believe both the Linn and Thorens are decent buys (and as fussy about set up as any loosely suspended deck) but not without one or two things to consider.

The Thorens is a good deck, the particular model on sale is apparently a "UK importer tweaked" special edition. This means that the standard stuff people may do to Thorens decks have allready been done. The Linn Basik arm on it is OK for MM cartridges but left far behind by an RB300. The deck has more influence then the arm on the overall sound though and some who do not understand Rega arms (on a suspended deck) would say the Basik is better matched then an RB300 is on either Linn or Thorens... IMO not true if you know how to treat a Rega arm. Thorens decks tend to sound a little more laid back in standard guise then the Rega or Linn. Together with a PM17 which though a finely balanced sounding amplifier, is not an adrenaline pumper. Keep that in mind while playing Punk. Overall,  a well priced buy though

The Linn: An ikon, a place where real stuff starts for many (spelling mistake deliberate).
Upgrade options are endless, from Linn and others. Some do not really understand the deck and their mods can stuff it up imo but if done well it competes with anything out there. German mags (less influenced by fashion) still consider the Majik and the SE LP12 "Spitzenklasse" along some seriously dear other contenders.
Because they are an ikon product, reselling is typically easier then other decks so can be a safe way of dipping the toes.
The Rega arm can be made to swing on the LP12, it just should not be torqued up with a "Monkey wrench" like most Linnies will do. A little more then finger tight, a serrated washer below does wonders.
Set up on any suspended deck is a little more involved then an unsuspended deck. However, with "black springs" and nylock or "castle" nuts, a correctly set up Linn (or Thorens) is quite stable.
With regard to 45 RPM, Linn offer an adaptor but it messes with belt tension, lopsides the suspension, is a pain to fit and is just in general a great reason to upgrade a Linn powersupply to 45 rpm capable ones :)

I have just brought in the first batch of Hercules powersupplies,  a drop in replacement upgrade on Valhalla that plays 45 rpm as well.
I can also modify Valhalla supplies to have a little external black box with a 33/45 toggle switch from a fly lead. This is quite cost effective.

The downside to the LP12, mmm, other then expense associated with 45rpm, just one sonic one. The cartridge represents a fair amount of the value of this sale. I am not convinced, fine as a Rondo Red is, that it is the best choice for rock. When that one is worn out, I would prolly choose something else. Second, that dark smoked lid is not exactly hip and not cheap to replace either.

An RPM5 or P3 imo will not come near the Thorens, never mind the Linn.

The Linn IMO offers best value, even though it is not the cheapest here.

WRT supports, any turntable, except those with their own hydraulic/air suspension or weigh as much as your cars engine (that has sonic drawbacks too....)

Ampdog

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Re: Help me choose a turntable
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2009, 03:11:28 am »
... and I am going to make no friends and perhaps a few fresh enemies (No, that was good post, Hi-Phibian! I agree with - er - most of it.)

Krepunk (where the guys get these handles ....  :) )

Since I am new to you; I have been associated with turntables since before we knew how to spell transistor, and have always found the subject overrated. I will not consciously make enemies (the existing ones are well enough run in, thank you!), but there seems to be a fixation - not relating to the above advice - that anything un-megabuck is junk. There has been enough blind tests to debunk this. Digital concepts (all or nothing) are fine in electronics but hardly ever relevant in mechanics. And that is in your favour; that is why sticklers for 'upgrading' will sell perfectly good machines for half their value.The thing producing the sound in a record player is the cartridge; that is where your emphasis for sound quality should be, especially when you can keep it for the next 'upgrade' (sic).

No prices have been mentioned; without that I would say get the Thorens from those mentioned. I am not an expert on modern turntables, but for myself I cannot imagine that any of the well-known brands are poor performers (I have seen the innards of several); some definitely over-priced, yes. (I have a 35-year old Thorens 135; no problems yet, just annual cleaning.)

(And Hi-Phibian, just one new belt; no slippage. The co-efficient of friction is far more than required to 'drive' a slow-moving turntable. Then ... I'm known to be naughty. I once demonstrated two different belts to please a perfectionist. He just barely preferred no. 1 - no actual issue. The Thorens belt was no. 2; no. 1 was an ordinary cheap elastic band.   :)  Obviously not saying that that should be standard practice. But R300 for a belt? Hmmmm)

[Just for the record: Hi-Phibian is one of my respected frienemies. We get along quite well; he always greets me with a smile! - which is more than I can say .....OK]
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 03:14:10 am by Ampdog »
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