The usual TT dilemma's and other things.

[Rudi]

is that Mr Mafiosa's specially turned solder weight on there?

Back to topic here:

Vinyl is a tricky business indeed. It shares some of the same pitfalls as its analogue buddy - speakers. No matter how good the speakers you buy (and run with some superb ultra-linear amplification) your room is going to come into play. If the room ain't right (or as right as possible) then you are essentially listening to some or other colouration. The same goes for vinyl set-up. Whether you go for a suspended deck such as the Linn LP12 or Thorens TD125/150 or an old idler like the Garrard 301/401, Lenco GL70/75/78 or a Thorens TD124, the more modern Rega P2/P3 etc... You are buying into a synergy of components that work together in a certain way and add a sonic signature to a greater or lesser degree to the music as represented on the vinyl disc.

If you want to listen to vinyl reproduction that is devoid of colouration then you need to spend big bucks and get a modern day SME deck with a modern day SME arm... Lots of people who have listened to such a set-up report it as being sterile... The same can be said of speakers with a ruler flat frequency response - they sound sterile. So, we like a little bit of colouration to a greater or lesser degree (cue valve amplification).

Tweaking...

I am coming to realise more and more that the world of tweaking and changing is fraught with contradictions. To give an example I have been looking at Rega p2/p3 decks of late. My first impression at getting my hands on one and taking it apart is that the construction and material choice is a joke! But then, the more I looked at the deck and the more I played it, the more I realised that the planar designer needs to be credited with some seriously good lateral thinking as the deck sounds a whole lot better than the sum of its parts... If you start fettling with that then essentially it would be quite easy to ruin the synergy that has been created. An example is the Rega planar plinth. On first inspection it looks like k@k cheap chipboard with a faux metalic laminate added. How can that work? Well if you go back to the research done in the late 50's by Mr Briggs of Wharfedale fame you will read that after testing many materials extensively he wrote very favourably of the damping properties of chipboard. Then if you read the research done on laminate strengthening then all of a sudden the Rega k@k plinth makes a whole lot of sense:  a great plinth that can be made cheaply...

There are loads of proven tweaks out there. but. At the same time there are loads of people pissing in the breeze which does not mean that the wind direction has changed, there just loads of okes with wet feet.

Other than that, hell it's fun.  

that doesn't mean that you shouldn't fiddle with them.
tweaking is fun, you have your disasters that you never mention, and then you have the stuff that actually works. the rega as is is very good considering what went into them. but it can sound alot better if the right changes have been applied. but just as easily you can destroy everything in a blink of a eye.

[ghostinthemachine]

That is sage advice right there!
The big money pit begins when you want to start cheapskate, and end up paying for upgrade after replcement after upgrade .......

Seems that sometimes I do speak a bit of useful advice... 

[alternativeroute]

that doesn't mean that you shouldn't fiddle with them.
tweaking is fun, you have your disasters that you never mention, and then you have the stuff that actually works. the rega as is is very good considering what went into them. but it can sound alot better if the right changes have been applied. but just as easily you can destroy everything in a blink of a eye.

I am definitely not saying that Regas shouldn't be tweaked! Finding the right tweaks is the key...

[Ampdog]

.... sometimes what you want is not available -

I would imagine this is certainly so. My taste is more of a classical side although what I like goes all over the range. I am certainly not able to replace many classics simply with CDs - the performance of a certain orchestra/artist and conductor may simply not be equalled by anything today. This may also be so regarding pop/metal performances. Early master tapes seem to exist to an extent, but also not so.

Then just a wee question, somewhat side-tracking. More and more pictures show a weight over the central spindle (Mafi's roll of solder!) .... ??  It has been shown (easy to do) that record slippage do not ever occur - so to what purpose again? Has someone found this to dampen some record disc resonance occurring - I would think that the vinyl itself does this effectively enough?

Next, the smooth (and having a very constant friction such as there many be) running of the platter in/on it's bearings is an important factor. But then one finds fairly long bushes at the top (large area in contact with the spindle) - this includes my Thorens. Surely a very narrow bush top and bottom - almost knife-edge - would improve the situation? (The radial load is too small to cause any noticable wear here.) I would consider this a useful 'tweak'? (Requiring some quite precise lathe work of course.) 

[fdlsys]

Then just a wee question, somewhat side-tracking. More and more pictures show a weight over the central spindle (Mafi's roll of solder!) .... ?

It does help a lot with warped LPs. If the LP doesn't have a solid contact over the whole area, resonances and bounces are anybody's guess.

Next, the smooth (and having a very constant friction such as there many be) running of the platter in/on it's bearings is an important factor. But then one finds fairly long bushes at the top (large area in contact with the spindle) - this includes my Thorens. Surely a very narrow bush top and bottom - almost knife-edge - would improve the situation? (The radial load is too small to cause any noticeable wear here.) I would consider this a useful 'tweak'? (Requiring some quite precise lathe work of course.) 

Couldn't agree more! As a matter of fact, the master of all unconventional TT things (William Firebaugh of Well Tempered Labs), the inventor of the "zero clearance TT bearing" has gone one step further - a "3 point contact" bearing. Have a look, it's as ingenious as it's simple. http://www.welltemperedlab.com/frameset1.html
His latest TT model, the Amadeus, takes the manufacturing  of the bearing to another level - a triangular bushing! No need for the adjustable Teflon contacts any more as the the nylon string ("belt") once tensioned by the motor will lock the spindle against 3 sides of the bushing - top 2 plus 1 at the bottom. I can only assume that the bushing still has the Teflon contact pad at the bottom.

[Ampdog]

It does help a lot with warped LPs. If the LP doesn't have a solid contact over the whole area, resonances and bounces are anybody's guess.

Ah then!

I thought about that. However, most of my warped records have that malady towards the perifery - still, I dare say it can make some difference if pushed down in the middle.

Regarding the bushes: I stand informed! Yes, the mentioned matters will take care of that side of things. Now to find someone north of the Vaal (or should I say north of the Jukskei/Krokodil) to amend my Thorens accordingly!

Thanks

[Rudi]

I think the ideal record would be a solid non resonant platter with grooves isolated from the bearing.
by adding a weight you are bringing the poor old LP closer to that utopia.

[Hi-Phibian]

Weights and clamps it would seem are sometimes misunderstood. One needs to first look at what the turntable mat does/can do which is to support the record and drain energy/resonances from it.
The main thing clamps and weights do is couple the LP tighter to the mat allowing more energy transfer from the played vinyl in to the mat. Some clamps are more absorbers then clamps for this same energy and absorb some themselves. Clamps and weights may also assist in reducing the effect of the energy from the speakers/air that can set induce vibration in a poorly supported LP or even damp a platter. (This is another reason why I dont like mats with rings, pods, points or holes etc supporting a record.)
Personally I feel clamping is better then weighting. Both are a PITB.

Clamps and weights can help with dished records on the one playing side, not the other, you need a periphery ring clamp for that. A little better yet if a 5 deg or so slope is machined in to the platter or mat.

A good mat is a hard mat btw. This was already known in the late 70s. Think Micro Seiki Copper Mat, Technics SP10 metal loaded rubber mat etc etc. A squidgy of furry material will only colour your sound with its uneven absorption. Some of us like colour and some platters need damping. Those need to choose their colour palette, err mat.

[Hi-Phibian]

I think the ideal record would be a solid non resonant platter with grooves isolated from the bearing.
by adding a weight you are bringing the poor old LP closer to that utopia.

Don't break the arm/platter loop but otherwise yes.

[fdlsys]

Regarding the bushes: I stand informed! Yes, the mentioned matters will take care of that side of things. Now to find someone north of the Vaal (or should I say north of the Jukskei/Krokodil) to amend my Thorens accordingly!

Very keen on it myself, so if you do find someone, please let me know?

The first WTL generation of the point-contact bearing (one that is on that linked page) has the spindle totally submersed in very light silicone fluid inside the bushing.

Wide gap between the walls of the bush and spindle results in practically 0 viscous drag. The effect of Teflon sliding is that it does offer a minimal friction which is a good thing - it keeps the belt/string tensioned at all times.

Bottom, off-centre contact point, as per designer - to keep the fluid running between the contacts AND to nudge the spindle in the right direction so that motor+string do not have to do heavy-lifting

Large volume of silicone fluid is there for two reasons - to lubricate the Teflon/spindle contact points AND to further absorb any mechanical resonances. He's done that very successfully with his no (conventional) bearing Well Tempered Arm already; silicone does the job.

EDIT: The later, triangular bearing: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/welltempered/3.html No idea about the insides, but fairly easy to imagine.

[mafioso]

I would imagine this is certainly so. My taste is more of a classical side although what I like goes all over the range. I am certainly not able to replace many classics simply with CDs - the performance of a certain orchestra/artist and conductor may simply not be equalled by anything today. This may also be so regarding pop/metal performances. Early master tapes seem to exist to an extent, but also not so.

Then just a wee question, somewhat side-tracking. More and more pictures show a weight over the central spindle (Mafi's roll of solder!) .... ??  It has been shown (easy to do) that record slippage do not ever occur - so to what purpose again? Has someone found this to dampen some record disc resonance occurring - I would think that the vinyl itself does this effectively enough?

Next, the smooth (and having a very constant friction such as there many be) running of the platter in/on it's bearings is an important factor. But then one finds fairly long bushes at the top (large area in contact with the spindle) - this includes my Thorens. Surely a very narrow bush top and bottom - almost knife-edge - would improve the situation? (The radial load is too small to cause any noticable wear here.) I would consider this a useful 'tweak'? (Requiring some quite precise lathe work of course.) 

Hello Ampdog

The 'roll of solder' is just a joke - taking the mickey out of compulsive obsessionists. No one should be so daft as to buy buckled records in the first place, no matter if it is the only copy ever pressed of your late ol' man croaking 'Tiritomba' in the bath. If you want to, I can even show a pic of an upturned stainless desert bowl I staged as a dinkum 'record weight'.

I don't believe in those things. They are more traps to whack needles and wear out motors and spindle bearings.

mafioso

[colonel66]

vinyl is better than digital sound quality wise ..... of that i have no doubt - but the problem is that to start a vinyl collection in this day and age is not always feasible from two points of view

1) sometimes what you want is not available - then you have to compromise by getting stuff you dont want or dont like just to keep listening to vinyl
2) you wont get the quantity of music you crave ie hard drives are now cheap - so having a collection of 100000+ tracks on a one terabyte drive in mp3 form is common ..... try to calculate how many LP's you need to have 100000+ songs on vinyl

so yeah it made huge sense in the days when the records were plentifully available and these days even though vinyl is making a comeback most music on vinyl is still rare to get hence why i wont be joining the queue unless records stop being mostly "unobtanium"

so i think that what you sense is more scepticism (sometimes healthy and probably at other times undeservedly the opposite) based generally on reasons of practicality and not really based on overt hostility toward you personally

for sure ... if i had kept my collection of vinyl instead of giving it all away like a fool when i started my CD collection then i would have had a convincing reason to be a part of the vinyl "rebirth" process

100,000 tracks at  say USD1 per track = USD100k aka more than R700k. If you have this to invest in music then investing 5% of that in vinyl is not gonna swing it either way. I have assumed of course that you pay for your music.

Ignoring background music, listening critically 2 hours every day would mean that you would listen to each track once every 8 or so years! That is a very large collection.

The converse is true that there is also stuff on vinyl that is not on CD/otherwise.

I got into vinyl late mainly due to my PERCEPTION of limited catalogue.  So I set about buying LP's and when I got to 50 ( all new no 2nd hand and in no time at all) I purchased a TT. Just a little googling will get you a decent collection in no time.



If you are into this hobby to get the best possible enjoyment from your music then LP is a no brainer. This may change once high res audio downloading becomes the standard but IMO this is some way off. There is more available on LP than one would suspect and I am ignoring the 2nd hand market.

[Atjan]

100,000 tracks at  say USD1 per track = USD100k aka more than R700k. If you have this to invest in music then investing 5% of that in vinyl is not gonna swing it either way. I have assumed of course that you pay for your music.

Ignoring background music, listening critically 2 hours every day would mean that you would listen to each track once every 8 or so years! That is a very large collection.

The converse is true that there is also stuff on vinyl that is not on CD/otherwise.

I got into vinyl late mainly due to my PERCEPTION of limited catalogue.  So I set about buying LP's and when I got to 50 ( all new no 2nd hand and in no time at all) I purchased a TT. Just a little googling will get you a decent collection in no time.



If you are into this hobby to get the best possible enjoyment from your music then LP is a no brainer. This may change once high res audio downloading becomes the standard but IMO this is some way off. There is more available on LP than one would suspect and I am ignoring the 2nd hand market.

With 'getting the best possible enjoyment from your music' I take it you mean best sound quality'?

If so,  and going back to '...'s main point, its going to cost substantially more to achieve objectively better sound with vinyl than with cd or even hd downloads.

Having said that though, I have to say that specific types of music I do prefer in vinyl (on a good set up of course), not because of objectively better sound but rather the 'feel' of the music.